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A well known variety. See screenshot from Michael Gouby's website below. Typically a master die in the Victorian period had just the 18.. pre-entered on it, and from that working dies were made that then had the last 2 digits hand entered. (This is behind all the date width varieties for example on Victorian bun pennies). For 1857 shillings, one working die had the last two digits entered with numeral punches from the wrong font thus causing the example above.

The 'ribbon' on this 1859 is die clashing, explained on Gouby's website, where he now also references Peck 404. The 'overlay' picture below also highlights the 'clash' area.

Bawbees are notorious for having circulated deep into the 18th century by which time they were barely identifiable - so this rather decent 1679 example is an exception to the beater bawbee rule.

Four Pence Victorian 1840 & 1877 (Maundy) Delving through the hoard today...... and these two I though were worth a show as they are in incredible condition.... which is a bit of a rarity amongst my lot.... 😲

Agreed. That was one of the first things i noticed about it. The full one i bought just arrived today. The portrait is a bit scuffed but i can't complain as it was cheap. Looks like a match with my half. Slevin 1a5 / Brand 1050. Stu.

The reverse lis and lions sit distinctively high in their respective quarters…I did find this, which belongs to an anchor obverse. I guess we’ll have to wait and see!

I particularly like the 1860/59 tie ribbons (plural)............always present in same place + further clashing under Victoria's chin.

I don’t like using proprietary products because I don’t know what’s in them, and I believe VerdiCare is difficult to obtain in the UK anyway. After some research on what the British Museum used to use to treat bronze disease and verdigris on large objects, like cannon, I tried the technique for myself on this battered 1799 half-penny. For anyone interested, the treatment was 100 minutes at 90°C in a 2% w/w solution of sodium sesquicarbonate in chlorine-free water. Followed by a rinse in chlorine-free water to remove the chemical and then a rinse in acetone to remove the water. The heat is needed as the reaction is impossibly slow at room temperature.

It's exactly the same - they haven't changed a thing.

It is rough but i think there is enough information to identify it. I can read VND + PIE i think. Which would make it Pieres at London Mint. Spink guide shows Pieres & Pieres M minting at London during class 1 under Henry II. Stu.

This is a fairly common contemporary counterfeit. J015o / I801r in my current system. It's connected to a number of other dies of various groups - it's the 7th coin in this die chain

So the reason of asking is if a coin is rare its condition goes by the side a little... this crown although its seen circulation is in quite good condition.... details are legible and minor rubbing... where would this Crown sit on the grade scale?

Forgetting the grade, the good thing about it for me is that there are no major digs or edge knocks/bruises, etc., making it a collectable fine too. Potentially your most valuable coin to-date?

Sifting through my bits and bobs and came across this one. Not listed in any books that i can find so one to mark down. Maybe a complete example will turn up one day who knows. Its a 1a4 obverse with the Seriffed X and a 1a3 reverse with a nice square E. Hvnfrei at York mint.

Another unlisted one. Sadly it's in sold listings on ebay. But worth noting down for reference if you like that sort of thing Reads Her instead of Hen on the obverse. Think its class 1b1 Rodbert at Winchester.

Today more sorting out and I found a shilling its dated 1857, on magnifying it highlighted that the numbers were different sizes the 7 has a few blobs deformation to it as well ... possibly done at the mint with numbers changed as worn out?

It's definitely a London coin, but not class 1 or Henry II because the N and D are ligated (joined together). If memory serves me right that feature first occurred on class IVa, which was issued under Richard I, but the lettering style isn't right for that. My guess would be class V or VI (so John or Henry III) and judging by the position of the O of ON probably a moneyer with five letters in his name. A bit more research could probably tie the class and maybe even the moneyer down a bit. Edit: you beat me to it Ukstu; I was glancing through my copies of Mass and Slevin for inspiration, but we seem to broadly agree on class 5 or 6.

Obviously this bawbee from King William III from 1697 circulated as a halfpenny deep into the 18th century given it's wear pattern

Not the best example but an unusual pairing. Withers 411 Bradford Workhouse counterstamp on a Samuel Fereday Bilston token.

The verdigris may not show very well in the photo. Below is another "before" photo under different light. Work is in progress on coins with more obvious/stubborn verdigris. I will report back!

Hello all. I am having some difficulties with this halved short cross penny. Specifically I am finding it hard to distinguish between early Class 1 of Henry II and early Class 5 of John. Both have the stop after the S of hENRICVS and a similar portrait structure. The poor condition of the piece doesn't help as it makes the hair not possible to see. I was wondering if anyone here could help to push me in the right direction. Thank you.

Thanks to Chris my old page is now available at https://www.predecimal.com/GIII/

Again, I can only recommend Galata's excellent tome on the pennies of the Edwards. Real research has been done there. All Paul and Bente's writing is of the highest quality by a pair who know their stuff, and as references will struggle to be equalled. Go for it. Splash the cash. You won't regret it. Incidentally, I also have a set of North, vols. 1 & 2, both new. £40 per volume or £70 the pair pus postage. PM me if interested. Thanks.

I have a few colonial coins that are in need of sorting out, today this was fished out of the pot of others, I'm pleased I did as after a warm soapy soak (and it was well minging!!!) all of the circulation hand grease and crud washed off left the coin's details come out. its pretty good for a Victorian Colonial...👍 unsure of the grade but better than just good... 27 berries, W.W. raised.

If that is mm spacing then a farthing. Makes sense given the weights. Old sterling pennies were 1.4g down to 1g ish, so 1/4g =1/4 penny. Do you have any reference books? Just wondering because by Eliz.1 the penny was about 0.5g, but that had declined over a long period. Coin values are determined by the diameter of the inner circle because the outer one is too susceptible to spreading when struck. Rules for the future: 1. Get a Withers small change book. 2. Get a Withers small change book. 3. Get a Withers small change book. 4. Get a Withers small change book. 5. Get a Withers small change book. The surplus suggestions are to cover the 4 periods contained within the volume set, and allow me to book some copy and paste replies without having to make any other contributions. They cover Ed1 - Ed.2; Ed.3-R1; Henry 4-6;Ed.4 - Henry 7 and Henry 8-Commonwealth. You don't have to buy every one at the same time unless they are offering a discount to clear some stock. It is the best reference available and is regularly updated. Worse advise (sic) is available on ebay from some aspiring millionaire who found this in granny's change the other day, conveniently overlooking the moneyer Grunal. Hint. This is Dave Greenhalgh's name for coins he has made, (legitimately for the purpose of demonstrating hammered minting techniques).

Aha..and as I have read.....it came about due to King Charles I was executed for high treason in 1649, after a civil war pitting his supporters against Parliament for control of the country...... 🤔

No problem. I do have a scanner. Hp Evny 4525. Think it's up to the job. I will dig it out and dust it off and scan it for you tommorow. Thank you for taking the time to look at it. Stu.

Another somewhat crude group C die - fairly common - Here's a better example.

Starting off, I owe you all a big Thank You...I came here 1 year ago and was recovering from a stroke... my reading and speaking has got better and my chaos has improved as well.... to a degree. Ive attached some photos of what's been paged and has put some order in place.... if the worse happen I'd hate to think what would have happen to these coins... The hammered coins (pennies) still cause problems for me and still there others to follow.... Sorry! 😟 once again a huge Thank You one and all for the support and clarification when assisting my queries, I wouldn't have been able to have got this far without it. Kind Regards "H"

I think people get a bit worked up over the question of cleaning as the topic is somewhat nuanced. Every coin in circulation showing signs of wear has effectively been cleaned because the act of circulation ensures that contact is made with other surfaces which rub against each other. i.e. nothing different to taking a the use of chemical cloth to a coin and rubbing. That just speeds up the process. The only thing that is offensive in the eyes of most collectors is a case of a polished coin, with or without the use of chemical substances. Personally I love toning for the fact it gives added confidence that the surfaces have not been messed about with, but even that has a few caveats because silver dip will leave a residue on the coin which over time will give the piece in question a typically pinkish hue. Any coin in someone's pocket will end up from friction with lots of faint parallel lines, because they were there. Without polishing chemically, I defy anyone to see the difference between pocket rub and a soft cloth, though clearly it would be possible in the case of demonetised coins to use your loaf and conclude that not being in circulation any more, the only option left is deliberate. In the case of the Morgan above, if the surfaces aren't reflective, probably not other than 'cleaning' from circulation, because there is clearly wear to the high points.

I remember a documentary in the 1960s showing the young royals preparing for Christmas decorating a tree. Anne was up a ladder and Andrew was trying to climb up with her. She turned on him and ordered "Geroutovit!" loudly. She obviously spotted a wrong'un early on!

My Grandfather,

Hopefully not lol. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you 🤞

Looks promising Stu. Goodluck !

As a fun film "The madness of king george" is not bad , puts a lighter and more human side to Georges you even feel sorry for the king at times.

James I Half Groat ..... ive been keeping away from the hammered pennies as Its tiring and needs a break for awhile.. I have others already identified of and fairly confidant that its ... weight 1 grm James I, Half Groat , Second Coinage 1621 - 1623 m.m. Thistle any comments welcome....🫡

Thank you very much for that! I think then that this coin is a Class 1a5 or 1b1 as the N has four serifs, as per https://www.rodblunt.com/short-cross-pennies-11.

It's possible they were hoarded for silver value, but if that was the only reason you'd expect the majority to be George V 1911-1919. I don't know when your grandad was getting these, but certainly in the 1920s (when silver hoarders were rife) actual coin collectors didn't rate George V (or even Edward VII) as collectable, as they were 'too modern'. There seems to be a strong element of that here. ( <--- irony : "Coin Hoarder" )

Dr Larry of 'lions and lambs' fame?

I had a few looks, but I couldn't make much sense of this as a coin. The blank reverse is unusual and the detail on the obverse is difficult to make out. I thought a button, but at 36g that sounds unlikely. Maybe a plaque or insert to a decoration that has then been in the ground for a long time?

when rediscovered. these were put to one side a year ago... I was looking through Spink and happened upon 2 pages 1649-60 commonwealth..... now I have been focused on Edwards, Short crosses, Long Crosses, Voided etc etc but then realised that I had these 2... yes they are rubbed but clear enough..... any thing I may be missing? opinions welcome... (Apologies.... actual weights to follow 👍)

Here is the link to the other one i posted. It was one i spotted on ebay while looking around at other forgeries to see if i could find a die match to mine. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/277566687748

The other thing you have to consider is that what's left of the H has been artificially rubbed away on a worn penny in modern times, then the whole coin distressed in order to hide what was done.

I was fortunate enough to pick up mine before the prices went completely crazy:

Ghastly, but the portrait is marginally better than the recent Princess Anne.

I have an EMR account for cable and alloys, and I get 'Heavy Copper' without asking each time I weigh in currency bronze....