More Pennies

[RLC35]

I don' t even care to add one to my own penny collection - in case you didn't get it, I rather dislike the "hypervarietals".

While I agree on the case of the open 3, the narrow date 1877 is a distinct reverse isn't it?

You are right Mr T, the 1877 ND is a distinct reverse, and very rare in any condition! None are know better than VF, and a choice example, if found would have collectors scrambling to acquire it! There are few Victoria pennies that even approach the rarity of the 1877 ND.

[hazelman]

Vicky - looking forward to your 1864 pics

[Prax]

Acquired this week - first coin from my coin swapping exercise - thanks to Mr Gary Bean, Canada

[Coinery]

I absolutely love seeing these milled coins with burrs on the rims! Lovely little beadie, Prax!

[Peter]

Prax

Nice coin.

What did you swap it for?

[Prax]

Prax

Nice coin.

What did you swap it for?

2 pennies a 1797 NGC 63 and a 1854 NGC 64.

[jacinbox]

Prax

Nice coin.

What did you swap it for?

2 pennies a 1797 NGC 63 and a 1854 NGC 64.

Nice coin but pretty steep price. There's one on fleabay for around £325 not as pretty but AU in my opinion.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1860-Beaded-Border-Rare-Victorian-Bun-Penny-Freeman-6-1-B-R10-/191573073730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c9aa51f42

Does anyone know chocophilebcp Seems like a decent seller - good feedback and seems to grade on the conservative site?

I might fancy a punt on this penny at £325.

[PWA 1967]

i have bought one of him recently just a cheap Freeman 78 but was good with the communication and sent me a couple of emails.

Its worth that money but would not be suprised to see it go for closer to £450-£500

[declanwmagee]

I'll vouch for Charlie too - good man. Likes his varieties and knows his silver too....

[Peter]

A good farthing man.

[Nordle11]

One of the better coin dealers on eBay that's for sure..

[Prax]

I have sold him some coin references and the transactions were smooth,

[Paulus]

I have bought from choco and would do so again

[Prax]

Here we go again

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1882-Victoria-Penny-no-H-Exceptionally-Rare-/291453666500?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43dbfe04c4

I must say can't see any traces of an underlying H but then the no H is not recognised for this pairing

Same old problem

[PWA 1967]

I have stopped looking prax two many doubts to be spending £1000+ on something in a low grade.The one he mentions at london coins i wasnt convinced about either

[Prax]

umm same here Pete. If I am not mistaken I saw this coin in the recent London Fair (Hol Inn)

It was being offered by Lloyd Roberts of Middlesex Coins and he was asking £200. It did look almost convincing but not one for me

[jacinbox]

Here we go again

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1882-Victoria-Penny-no-H-Exceptionally-Rare-/291453666500?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item43dbfe04c4

I must say can't see any traces of an underlying H but then the no H is not recognised for this pairing

Same old problem

I don't think anyone would shell that level of money for an undocumented supposed variety. It's funny the seller says 3rd example in 5 years. There is only one the Seaby example and even that is a touch and go. I have seen that coin and I am not 100% that it was not a rub-off job. If this is the third then how come no one has heard of the second?

[VickySilver]

I agree that is some money. Overall, what I do not understand is the dogma that there must be only one die type combo for an 1882 "no H". Absolutely no proof that I have seen is convincing. I guess that rightly so people approach this date gingerly.

[Rob]

I think it is a combination of the references stating there is only one die pair coupled with the circumstantial, but quite compelling fact that the original Soho-made mint equipment was replaced in 1882 (which is why Heatons got the contract), meaning the output was significantly reduced.

I agree it is dogmatic, but against that must be considered that the pennies have been done to death over the past 60-70 years, so you might reasonably expect an unambiguous one to have appeared in the interim.

[jacinbox]

There seem to be around 25 - 50 no H pennies. Out of which there are at least 3 in UNC grade and all have the known die pairing. Further it is ridiculous how many with the wrong die pairing have been engineered to look like a genuine no H.

Given these points unless a no H with the new die pairings is found in UNC (or close) grade the debate will go on, quite naturally with the experts and collectors standing their ground. Just as is the case with the 1876 close date no H.

[Coinery]

With so few known, it's unlikely to be anything other than a single die-pairing, surely?

Edit: and a single pair at that!

Edited May 6, 2015 by Coinery

[VickySilver]

I guess there are a few ways to look at the few survivors line of evidence. If only a few were made even from two dies (let alone 3!), it might only be that a couple from one survived as the rest were paid out into circulation where they would naturally have been generally unloved for quite some while. I have found in other areas (okay medicine and biology), that original source material is often propogated to the point that there really is only one point of view or line of evidence being presented, but being "retold" by successive authors.

There are quite a few examples in the USA series where the "mother mint" in Philadelphia produced dies for the branch mints and resultant strikes/specimens are either unknown or only from a specimen or two and generally in more worn state unless preserved and passed on as assay specimens. In other words, what is done with dies is not always predictable. Also, if there were for some reason a second run, it is certainly possible that another die was selected for whatever reason (damage, or rust, or ? to the first or second dies)...

[damian1986]

12 + N is the most common die pairing at the Heaton mint so don't understand why, if the 12 + N no-H is authentic, there are only 3 poor examples knocking about?

If the no H examples were created at the Royal Mint then (a) again a decent example is more likely to exit? ( b ) we'd expect similar numbers of 11 + N and 12 + N to exist?

I suppose there are loads of variables that can be brought into play here but help me out of my ignorance??

Out of interest is anyone able to say with certainty where the no-H coins were actually struck? I saw the thread from aeons ago where this got given a good seeing to but didn't seem anything certain except that it's unlikely that they made a mistake in Birmingham as they were "cereomonious" in their preparation of dies for production, but also that the Mint were doing trials despite not having much equipment and the fact that these coins then made it into circulation rather than either a) the dustbin ( b ) a mint workers home cupboard, doesn't sit that well with me.

Edited May 6, 2015 by damian1986

[Rob]

After the contract with Heatons was completed, the dies presumably returned to Tower Hill where they were destroyed. However, if there was a requirement for a small quantity of pennies at the end of the year, then the logical way forward would be to take a Heaton die and fill the H in. Ideally it would be possible to check out the accepted 1882 no H for a filled die under an electron microscope as you would be looking for a slight perturbation in the field where the H should be. If the die was perfectly filled and polished down level with the field, then even this might not show.

Unfortunately Hocking doesn't list any items for 1882 or 1882H on the penny front in the RM museum, so this is not an option.

Does anyone know where the good no H pennies are? Better still, are they on good terms with any current owner?

Another line of enquiry would be to do a census of 1882H dies and see if any match the known no H dies.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Rob

[azda]

Bernie has one, i'm sure he put it on the forum a few years back