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I guess if it was his daughter then "she would be walking out the door like she did one thousand times before. Don’t you love her ways, tell me what you say”

Hi Mike, that coin has been sold twice before on ebay in the past 3 months, and by same seller..... previously for over £300 on both occasions. Just a word of warning if you actually bought it, that maybe it won't look so good 'in the hand'. I could be totally wrong, but did think strange that it has been returned twice already.

I see that someone got 'suckered' into buying this, it's a 😭shame! 1856 Queen Victoria Copper Penny. High Grade. | eBay

I have had one of these for donkeys years, but never really look at it so thought I would sell on. This is an old book, and with exactly the same cover as the one which can be found on this link. The Coinage of the British Empire: An Outline of the Progress of the Coinage in Great Britain and Her Dependencies, from the Earliest Period to the Present Time by Humphreys, Henry Noel: Good Hard Cover (1861) Third Edition. | The Armadillo's Pillow (abebooks.co.uk) I don't need anything like the amount AbeBooks are asking, so a sensible offer from a member would probably be acceptable.......... if anyone is interested. Please PM me if you want it, and I can then send pictures to show condition, not dissimilar to the one in the link.

Hi Mike, I let the book go for £80 as was a previous customer, he also took the 1854/3. You are right about the 1853PT with italic date obverse, very difficult one, but not widely recognised. No one seems interested in that as I don't even have 1 watcher! Did you see the 1862 F38 which came onto ebay last night on an auction? I looked again this morning and someone had already snaffled it on a Buy it Now for £55.......at 2.46 in the morning would you believe? 😳😜

Bramah book and 1854/3 penny have now been sold. Still have 1854 No colons and 1853PT with Italic date available

Just put my spare copy of this on ebay if anyone is interested. Also a couple of difficult Victorian copper penny varieties

This discussion has prompted me to take digital pictures of the various numeral 9’s on my own 1859’s, and I now show some of these below. The pictures were all taken at 140x magnification by sliding next coin under the microscope without changing settings. These are all decent grade coins so I don’t think that ‘flattening’ through wear will have made much difference to the measurements which I have given. I have only taken measurements of the lengths, as width measurements would have made the pictures too busy, and I think one can see the width variations without needing to have their measurements. We all knew that Gouby B has a visibly different smaller 9, so no great surprise on that one, but I think there are a couple of other interesting things:- The 9 (top right), which has been the subject of this discussion, is indeed narrower (in itself) than the other type of 9’s. So, in addition to being the narrowest date width of all 1859’s (at 9 teeth) it could also be thought of as a ‘narrow date’ type based upon the width of the 9 itself. Note that this 9 also has other distinguishing features e.g. shape of its tail. The surprising one for me is that I now believe that the numeral 9 on Gouby Date Style Ab is slightly different to that on Gouby Aa. In addition to the measurement difference, I think that the area within the top loop also seems more circular on Ab. You will see that I have drawn in a blue arrow to highlight a protrusion bottom right, this can be checked against the picture on MG’s website to verify that this is the exact same die which he references. CP 1859 date varieties (michael-coins.co.uk) P.S. My experience is that Gouby Aa is by far the most common type for 1859, and I have this morning taken measurements of several other Aa coins, all coming in at 1.62mm, albeit with varying amounts of doubled numerals. I can also show these pictures if anyone wishes to see them.

Richard / Jerry, Yes, I am sure you are correct in that this flaw is a unique identifier of type. I have owned 6 examples over the years and all have had this flaw at front of truncation. The flaw progresses, on later strikes, right through the base of the truncation and then down to a border tooth at the back of Victoria. This die also has another progressive flaw through the VICTORIA legend; the attached pictures refer. I am, therefore, almost certain that the numeral 9 which we have been discussing only appears on a single obverse die.

Yes, that's the narrow 9 date style Mike, and a nice looking example too, well done 👍

Yes, not easy to find those Richard. The Gouby Date Style A variations are far more common than either of the 9 fonts in my picture which you have shown above. The style that I called 'New Style X / Narrow 9' is also a perfect fit with the protrusions that can be seen on the 1860/59, see picture now attached. When I described it as 'narrow' it was because the entire date is only 9 teeth wide, which is less than all style A variations I have ever seen, and also half a tooth narrower than Gouby Style B (with the smaller numeral 9). I wasn't meaning that the numeral 9 is narrow in itself!! Hope that makes sense. It's another year that I must try to do some stats on from my 5-year ebay study. Problem is my wife keeps wanting holidays! 😉

I'm inclined to agree Richard. I think I have a couple of irregular shaped 'extra metal' pieces myself, will check when I'm back home.

Thanks, it seems to be the sum of the❤, 😀 and 🏆 symbol scores, which I see I'm now at 697, one ahead of my 696 content score. Knowing me I will now start watching this, so not sure you've done me a favour!! I guess that no one will react to this post though, so you will be dragging me down to 697/697 😉

Agree that detached clover on it's own is not sufficient, there are definitely other dies which exhibit that. The clover is just a useful additional thing to check to give extra confidence after first looking for the obverse flaw and 4 colon positions on reverse. Those are usually the easiest things to see anyway. As you say Richard, the die flaw is the unique definitive identifier. Just one other thought, on the 8/? (similar die to 8/6), I have noticed that all 3 examples I have owned have the flaw clearly exiting bottom left of the C of VICTORIA. This is probably easier to see than whether the flaw starts between teeth or centre of a tooth, so should help members to identify the obverse die.....assuming it's always present!? Picture below illustrates

Thanks Blake, not really sure what that means, but it sounds like a compliment....much appreciated.