Idiots collecting Freeman numbers

[Peckris]

So, not yet having a copy of Freeman (waiting to get some Amazon gift cards/vouchers) how can you tell it is a rarer variety? Is it the left ~ because it looks like it is doubled (or tripled)?

It's a crossover mule - two obverses, two reverses, so 4 possible combinations. Pointings are the quickest and easiest indicators:

Obv 3, Rev C, F.471, C10, I of DEI nearly at a bead, L of HALF between beads

Obv 3, Rev D, F.473, R5, I of DEI nearly at a bead, L of HALF at a bead

Obv 4, Rev C, F.474, R12, I of DEI between beads, L of HALF between beads

Obv 4, Rev D, F.475, R3, I of DEI between beads, L of HALF at a bead

Or the "quick and dirty" way to tell - the common issue has the normal narrow obverse rim, and short reverse teeth. The scarce/rare varieties have any combination of wide obverse rim (like the "1968" hqlfpenny) and/or long reverse teeth.

[Coinery]

Oh, and John, do share the link with our esteemed friend!

[argentumandcoins]

Oh, and John, do share the link with our esteemed friend!

I fear twud be lost on him Stuart and hopefully he is either back on his meds or back on his ward

[Coinery]

So, not yet having a copy of Freeman (waiting to get some Amazon gift cards/vouchers) how can you tell it is a rarer variety? Is it the left ~ because it looks like it is doubled (or tripled)?

It's a crossover mule - two obverses, two reverses, so 4 possible combinations. Pointings are the quickest and easiest indicators:

Obv 3, Rev C, F.471, C10, I of DEI nearly at a bead, L of HALF between beads

Obv 3, Rev D, F.473, R5, I of DEI nearly at a bead, L of HALF at a bead

Obv 4, Rev C, F.474, R12, I of DEI between beads, L of HALF between beads

Obv 4, Rev D, F.475, R3, I of DEI between beads, L of HALF at a bead

Or the "quick and dirty" way to tell - the common issue has the normal narrow obverse rim, and short reverse teeth. The scarce/rare varieties have any combination of wide obverse rim (like the "1968" hqlfpenny) and/or long reverse teeth.

Quick 'n' dirty, happy days!

[azda]

Oh, and John, do share the link with our esteemed friend!

I fear twud be lost on him Stuart and hopefully he is either back on his meds or back on his ward

Or both

[Gary]

I have just read this thread and John, very nice reply, classic. By the way who is this Freeman bloke?

[TomGoodheart]

I have just read this thread and John, very nice reply, classic. By the way who is this Freeman bloke?

He's that guy in the adverts of course:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYw4os8nK9I

[Gary]

I have just read this thread and John, very nice reply, classic. By the way who is this Freeman bloke?

He's that guy in the adverts of course:

Oh yes, Morgen Freeman. I was not aware that he wrote a book on British Bronze coins....

[Peckris]

I have just read this thread and John, very nice reply, classic. By the way who is this Freeman bloke?

He's that guy in the adverts of course:

Oh yes, Morgen Freeman. I was not aware that he wrote a book on British Bronze coins....

While we're on that subject, More Than have used Morgan Freeman's name (and voice?) in their fictional "Hi, I'm More Than Freeman" ad - but he is played by a white man!! What's that about?

[Chris Perkins]

Michael Freeman has asked me to add the following to this thread:

Everyone is entitled to opinions, but not to distort facts without having any knowledge about them.

I did not 'self-publish for decades because I had to'.

In 1963, I chose to publish 'The Victorian Bronze penny' myself because my friend, Stanley Langman, had a printing company in Glasgow and he gave me a reasonable price; and I had 'hands-on' involvement with everything.

It seemed a good idea to try to sell them myself, which I did.

This was a success, and in 1966 he printed a second edition for me.

The same facts applied in 1969, when I wrote 'The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain'.

I did not ask anyone to publish it.

In 1983, living then in England, near London, I wrote another book on the subject of buying and selling coins, which Hutchinson published (in the name of Barrie and Jenkins, an offshoot company).

They also published the 2nd edition of 'The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain' in 1985. I did not approach anyone else to do this.

In 2006 Spink asked me if I wanted to write an updated 3rd edition; but settled for permission to re-print the 1985 book. I had sold my collection in 1984 and 1986, so took no interest in bronze coins from then on. The late Laurie Bamford, whom I had known for many years as an expert, offered to give me a list of what had been discovered since then, to bring me up to date, but by 2006, I did not have the same enthusiasm as I had when I was a collector.

On the matter of my rarity estimates, I based these on hard statistics. In the case of post-Victorian coins, I withdrew large numbers of bags from banks, to augment what I had already noted. This was in the 1960s, when all the coins covered in this book were in circulation.

There was no better way of assessing rarity - mintage figures do not give die varieties.

Regarding Victorian pennies and halfpennies, by 1966, when they were withdrawn by the banks for melting, I held over 62,000 of the former and 3,000+ of the latter. A fair proportion of them were badly worn, but enough were not and I can think of no better means of assessing their rarity than this randomly assembled collection. It enabled me to compare and assume relative rarity to the point where I felt I could assign 40 different degrees of rarity.

I developed a sharp eye for identifying very worn coins with only a few areas visible. An example was the 1862 obverse 2 penny. The top leaf on the bust points to a lower area than on the usual obverse 6. I wrote to Peck when I discovered it, as he had hinted at its possible existence in a footnote in his book. The same applies to many other distinguishing features, such as in identifying the rare reverse F from only parts of the silhouette of Britannia.

I sold all my legible Victorian pennies at 2 1/2d each to Corbitt and Hunter of Newcastle in 1966. A crane lifted them, and the doors in my parents' house stopped swinging to the place where I had kept them!

I have no doubt that my estimates are pretty accurate where I had thousands of examples, such as in the 1895-1901 Veiled Bust series.

Where I had only a few, or one coin, of a type or die pairing, clearly there was not enough to go on to be certain of assigning an accurate rarity estimate. As I stated in my Introduction to the book (which is important and often not fully read), I knew some were likely to be wrong, and I think this applies to the very rarest, some of which, judging from auctions at the excellent London Coin Auctions, are less rare than I assessed them to be in 1969.

I considered that melting down millions of coins would increase rarity; and I also took into account the fact that some types had become unidentifiable as a result of having suffered heavy wear from over 100 years of circulation, making the rare ones moreso.

I am fortunate enough still to be alive at almost 75, so able to correct the unfounded criticism I have read on this forum.

And flattered and happy to see that, worldwide, my book on bronze is used by top dealers and auction houses as the standard reference work."

Michael Freeman

[TimMedhurst]

Great reply. Astonished to read from the beginning of this thread! I use Freeman for lots of my research.

Good to see the passion is still there at 75. Long may it continue.

[Colin88]

I have to say though that in my experience of buying and selling as a collector that Penny collectors are the worst to deal with.....If I had an 1877 ND in Fine for £50 on ebay I would get emails saying that they would buy it for £10 as its low grade but really they are waiting for one in BU for £60 and to let them know when I get one ....sorry, just my experience.

[Coinery]

From all I just read in this thread, I'd say your integrity is in good stead, and you are still held in high esteem!

Great to hear you are fit and well!

[Peter]

Top chap Mr Freeman.

Your work is brilliant....You sir are a bit of collecting history.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Peter

[bagerap]

Reading Michael Freeman's eloquent message I realised that when he first published, he was around 22 years old. All that knowledge in one so young. Bloody amazing.

[RLC35]

Hi Michael,

Nice to know you are still following the Forum. I think we are all indebted to you for the fine references you have published over the years. I for one, use them daily. Although you are not heavily involved in collecting any more, you have been very helpful at times, to many of us, who have come to you for additional clarification on a date or type of Bronze Pennies. Thanks a lot! By the way, I am 4 years older than you! Ha,Ha. Great hearing from you, on the Forum.

All the Best!

Bob Crawford, Indianapolis, USA.

[Paulus]

I feel we are privileged to be personally addressed by the legend that is Michael Freeman

[PWA 1967]

Thank you.

I think we take the books for granted and made me wonder how we could of possibly collected or studied bronze coins without them.

[Bernie]

Many of Michael's rarity estimates were questioned in the 1980's and 90's.

Amazingly, time has shown that many of the questioned rarity estimates have proved most accurate.

Well done Michael !! This is proof that your work was revolutionary and timeless.

Your books and information were compiled before the internet, so with all of the many millions of bronze coins struck it was inevitable that you did not come across 100% of the varieties now known.

Your number one fan,

I think that the reader that knocked your work would definitely be rated at R20 !!

[jacinbox]

This thread is a direct reference to me "Idiot collecting ....."

Bernie I would like to challenge you on the number one fan claim

I hold a research degree and I can assure you that there is no better way to have conducted research on pennies except the way Freeman did.

It is almost perfect. Thanks from the bottom of my heart Mr Freeman

[1949threepence]

Although I contributed to this thread back in 2012, I have literally only just read the fantastic response from Michael Freeman above.

As Pete would say "hat off". I refer to Mr Freeman's book literally on a daily basis. Obviously over time - a very protracted period of time - some of his estimates will be questioned and revised. But for the overwhelming most part, they are considered pretty much as accurate today as they were when first compiled back in the 1960's. That is some feat, and testament to his skill and dedication.

Thank you MIchael.