Confirmation of Dies Please

[Kipster]

Morning all,

Just wondered if you could possibly confirm the die pairing on this 1861 halfpenny for me please? I'm sure I haven't asked before, so please forgive me if it's a duplicate. I'm using the great halfpennyvariety site to work it out, and I think this is 7 + G (missing rocks?) variety. Be grateful if someone could confirm for me please. Thanks.

 

[Zo Arms]

I would agree with 7+G.

[DrLarry]

yes me too 

[Kipster]

Great, thanks both. Getting the hang of these now, so that's my Saturday afternoon sorted out...

[Paddy]

Am I right that the "no rocks" variant occurs both for 1861 and 1862? I appear to have two of the latter, but could not find mention of either in Freeman.

(One is spare if there is anyone after an example - PM me.)

[Mr T]

Reverse G is 1861 to 1873 - I think there's a small rock but I guess it's the "no rocks" reverse?

[Paddy]

The lack of rocks seems to be a fairly plain variation and I'm sure was discussed on this forum before. Here are pics of my two 7+Gs, one with rocks and one without:

My 1861 7+G clearly has rocks, so it was news to me that there was a no rocks variety of this too.

 

[Mr T]

Hm is it die fill? I dug up some pictures of reverse G and it looks like the rocks can be quite weak.

[Rob]

Don't think it is die fill, as there's no sign of it on my example.

[Mr T]

Ah yeah I checked Mal Lewendon's photos and he notes a reverse G with no rocks, but doesn't give much more detail than that I think.

[Mr T]

Iain Dracott's article just says some reverse G have missing rocks, mainly from 1861 to 1863. More research required I guess.

[Mr T]

And a little bit of an update to this - I haven't done a in-depth study of the G with rock/G with no rock from 1861 to 1873, but I have had a brief look.

From 1863 to 1873, the pictures I have at hand all seem to show a rock (though a bit faint at times).

More interestingly, the 1862 with A to left of lighthouse has no rocks while the 1862 with A to right of lighthouse has a rock, at least from the handful of images I've looked at (https://www.baldwin.co.uk/product/victoria-1837-1901-halfpenny-1862-die-letter-a-rrr/, https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=124&searchlot=555&searchtype=2, https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=162&searchlot=2355&searchtype=2).

[Rob]

1 hour ago, Mr T said:

And a little bit of an update to this - I haven't done a in-depth study of the G with rock/G with no rock from 1861 to 1873, but I have had a brief look.

From 1863 to 1873, the pictures I have at hand all seem to show a rock (though a bit faint at times).

More interestingly, the 1862 with A to left of lighthouse has no rocks while the 1862 with A to right of lighthouse has a rock, at least from the handful of images I've looked at (https://www.baldwin.co.uk/product/victoria-1837-1901-halfpenny-1862-die-letter-a-rrr/, https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=124&searchlot=555&searchtype=2, https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=162&searchlot=2355&searchtype=2).

Hmmm. The thing that stands out most here is the different positions of the two As to left of the lighthouse. The grotty one appears to be well circulated and presumably genuine as nobody would counterfeit a coin with a small A by the lighthouse when the majority of examples were bereft of any mark. The high grade one looks genuine too, so where does that leave the letters being a means of die identification? Back to the drawing board? The obvious inference is that not all As are equal, so with multiple dies extant, the letter must refer to something else - week, coining press, metal mix?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Rob

[DaveG38]

8 hours ago, Rob said:

Hmmm. The thing that stands out most here is the different positions of the two As to left of the lighthouse. The grotty one appears to be well circulated and presumably genuine as nobody would counterfeit a coin with a small A by the lighthouse when the majority of examples were bereft of any mark. The high grade one looks genuine too, so where does that leave the letters being a means of die identification? Back to the drawing board? The obvious inference is that not all As are equal, so with multiple dies extant, the letter must refer to something else - week, coining press, metal mix?

Clearly, the A is for the original die sinker Algernon, but he died, so Archibald took over. He thought he was better and didn't fancy his work being associated with that scoundrel Algernon, so he put the die letter to the other side of the lighthouse. Then along came Augustine who put his A anywhere he felt like, and didn't care what size it was. Sounds logical to me. Simples!!

[Bernie]

My "A" to the right has clover leaf left of the lighthouse.

[secret santa]

More interestingly, the 1862 with A to left of lighthouse has no rocks.

Not true.

Edited October 2, 2023 by secret santa
amandment

[Rob]

9 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Not true.

Mr T said that, not me. 

My point revolves around the different A marked dies and the use of the die letter in general. I appreciate the die letters are used with reverses E(B), F(C) & G(A) which would imply they are comparing the 3 designs, but why would they be comparing them in 1862 when all three were used in various obv/rev die pairs the year before? It isn't as if they had no data to go on given the large output in 1861. Unless they suddenly ran into a problem with rev. G for whatever reason and felt the need to revert to an earlier die to see if something could be improved. Then to have at least 3 different A dies raises the question as to why more than one was needed. 

[secret santa]

Rob

You were too quick off the mark - I amended it immediately to remove your name.

[jelida]

This is very true;  if for die longevity studies why use the same marker more than once? If such studies were ‘in house’, then just collect and count/weigh the output from the die in question before release into circulation. If for studies of coinage in circulation, how would you ever reliably track them with such a small output ? You would have to search through massive numbers of circulating pennies if the ratio of extant coins is a true reflection of mintage. Perhaps for dispersal studies, eg town x is given only ‘A’ halfpennies,  and a month later is revisited to determine the proportion of marked 1862 halfpennies left? All very strange. But there must be a logical explanation.

Jerry

 

[blakeyboy]

14 hours ago, DaveG38 said:

Clearly, the A is for the original die sinker Algernon, but he died, so Archibald took over. He thought he was better and didn't fancy his work being associated with that scoundrel Algernon, so he put the die letter to the other side of the lighthouse. Then along came Augustine who put his A anywhere he felt like, and didn't care what size it was. Sounds logical to me. Simples!!

Incidentally,  Algernon's wife was the first to get that nasty hospital bug, so they named it 'Mrs.A' after her....

[DaveG38]

3 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Incidentally,  Algernon's wife was the first to get that nasty hospital bug, so they named it 'Mrs.A' after her....

I think we have the basis for a BNJ article developing on this subject.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1862 A to LEFT of Lighthouse - Nearer to Rim

Poor quality, difficult to see, but I believe the rocks are there.

 

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1862 A to LEFT of Lighthouse - Nearer to the Lighthouse 

Better quality,  faint, but the rocks are there. 

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1862 A to RIGHT of Lighthouse

Rocks are clearly there. 

[Mr T]

Interesting, there are more die letter A examples than I expected.

Anyway, left with more questions than answers as usual.