Is the bottom falling out of the Penny market ?

[DrLarry]

I'm not sure I agree with you about the kids losing interest in history I would say it is in the ascendancy kids have been inspired by programmes like Horrible Histories it's just th interest is different. They have (thankfully) moved away from the tedium of learning long disconnected lists of facts. Instead they enjoy more social history and in many ways have a better understanding of history at the common level than many older people. Hence I think we might have a job on our hands if we approach collecting just as collecting long lists of coins. I think we should begin to write coins into the fabric of this somewhat dumbed down version of history (not my opinion) in that way we can engage them at a level of the people that held the most money and exchanged it... The common npeople..... Instead of being a very snobbish approach we can have a lot of fun being imaginative and creative. One good way is to ask primary school teachers if, when they study a historic period, if they would be interested in you visiting with a load of coins the kids can handle and imagine with. It is our duty as I have said to create the future collectors by stimulating their interest. The curriculum periods are, fire of London, tudors, victorian social history punishment and social injustice, roman Britain, Greeks, aztecs, Egyptians, civil war, African west Africa cultures. Then of course there are the high schools. Think outside the money box and show them the con nections coins can give them. 

[oldcopper]

For that F6a, they're obviously going on the reflective surface only. With the deterioration of beading and wear on Britannia plus no special sharpness, hopefully the description will get corrected before long. Unless they know something we don't.....

A few years ago, Spink sold a described beaded/toothed mule penny (as described and illustrated) for 1600 hammer (if I remember rightly).....except it wasn't, it was a simple F10, with the slightly different toothed borders each side. Oh dear!

[oldcopper]

Here's that "mule" I mentioned:

https://www.spink.com/lot/16004000792

The moral of the story is: professional cataloguers don't always know what they're talking about!

[PWA 1967]

7 hours ago, oldcopper said:

Here's that "mule" I mentioned:

https://www.spink.com/lot/16004000792

The moral of the story is: professional cataloguers don't always know what they're talking about!

Thats terrible and more to the point someone will of told them but they still sold it ,i hope it was returned.

For an auction house not to listen and just going ahead with something as obvious , the cataloguer must of had a gun to his head 

Edited June 19, 2018 by PWA 1967

[zookeeperz]

N over N. Who gave the coin that description? If it were a sideways N the foot would be at the top not the bottom and there would be a cross where the center downstrokes merge. Not a N 

[jelida]

You have rotated it the wrong way sideways. Try rotating the N anti-clockwise, then it fits perfectly. 🤗

Jerry

[1949threepence]

8 hours ago, oldcopper said:

Here's that "mule" I mentioned:

https://www.spink.com/lot/16004000792

The moral of the story is: professional cataloguers don't always know what they're talking about!

Absolute highway robbery, and some naive sap fell for it. That is so obviously not a mule.  

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

7 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Absolute highway robbery, and some naive sap fell for it. That is so obviously not a mule.  

Not even close....

They did get the date and the reverse correct....

[Colin88]

I've followed this up with Spink as a matter of interest as it was clear to anyone yet alone a professional cataloguer that it wasnt a mule  .....they did say there had been an unusual sequence of events that led to this rare cataloguing error ...that the matter had beeen resolved correctly and satisfactoraily between the buyer and the seller...pity it wasnt the other way around ie described as an F10 but actually an F9 ...lol !      

[1949threepence]

On 6/15/2018 at 0:02 AM, 1949threepence said:

I haven't seen the updated Freeman book, but I gather that the 1860 N over sideways N (Z) is now referred to as a Freeman 10A. 

 

On 6/15/2018 at 0:23 AM, RLC35 said:

I haven't seen the updated Freeman book, but I gather that the 1860 N over sideways N (Z) is now referred to as a Freeman 10 A

Mike have you talked to Michael to get this new designation? Just wondering.

 

Sorry cocked up the post - ignore and see next post

On 6/16/2018 at 9:35 AM, 1949threepence said:

No Bob - dnw describe the variety as such for their upcoming auction. Thought maybe they knew something I didn't - link to item  

 

Clickage  Zoom

•  

Edited July 3, 2018 by 1949threepence

[1949threepence]

On 6/16/2018 at 9:35 AM, 1949threepence said:

No Bob - dnw describe the variety as such for their upcoming auction. Thought maybe they knew something I didn't - link to item  

 

 

In fact I have now purchased the new 2016 edition of Freeman's "The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain 1860 to 1970", as a bargain £7.50 off e bay. Turning instantly to the 1860 types on pages 29 to 30, I note that in fact type 10A does not exist, and can only conclude that dnw have made it up. Unless anyone knows to the contrary?  

Edited July 3, 2018 by 1949threepence

[1949threepence]

On 6/13/2018 at 11:01 AM, PWA 1967 said:

I dont think there is as many penny collectors as we think for the varieties and does not seem many new collectors coming on the forum or from what i am told going to shows.

Same auction a scabby 1860 T for £100  that was over £500 a few years ago at LCA ,more turn up and people have one prices come down IMO.

I think the F32 went for about £80 i realise it wasnt very good but again i would think a few years ago it would of gone for more than that.

The GF F32 on e bay recently went for £875. Not a bad price in all fairness. 

[PWA 1967]

51 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

The GF F32 on e bay recently went for £875. Not a bad price in all fairness. 

Yes it was a really good price for the seller Mike 

Edited July 27, 2018 by PWA 1967

[1949threepence]

On 7/27/2018 at 9:34 AM, PWA 1967 said:

Yes it was a really good price for the seller Mike 

and I'd say an above the average, problem free example, from the admittedly limited population, Pete.

So a bit of a win win.

Had I not already got one, and seen that, I might well have gone to £875, or even pushed the bidding higher.   

 

[PWA 1967]

34 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

and I'd say an above the average, problem free example, from the admittedly limited population, Pete.

So a bit of a win win.

Had I not already got one, and seen that, I might well have gone to £875, or even pushed the bidding higher.   

 

Yes like anything if the buyer is happy its all that matters 

 

[jelida]

57 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

and I'd say an above the average, problem free example, from the admittedly limited population, Pete.

So a bit of a win win.

Had I not already got one, and seen that, I might well have gone to £875, or even pushed the bidding higher.   

 

It was a difficult one for me, a better example than mine but not a sufficient advance that I wished to put in a serious bid at this time, especially from this seller. But I think the overall price was not unreasonable, and apart from the recent DNW sale I see no evidence of a reduction in the penny market.

Since my move I am also collecting pennies of my local town, which as they are mostly Anglo Saxon or Norman has imposed additional financial pressures and selectivity.

Jerry

[1949threepence]

9 minutes ago, jelida said:

It was a difficult one for me, a better example than mine but not a sufficient advance that I wished to put in a serious bid at this time, especially from this seller. But I think the overall price was not unreasonable, and apart from the recent DNW sale I see no evidence of a reduction in the penny market.

Since my move I am also collecting pennies of my local town, which as they are mostly Anglo Saxon or Norman has imposed additional financial pressures and selectivity.

Jerry

Similar to me Jerry. Marginally better than mine (which is example 15 in Richard's rarest pennies site for F32), but certainly not significantly enough to warrant me bidding. 

[PWA 1967]

12 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Similar to me Jerry. Marginally better than mine (which is example 15 in Richard's rarest pennies site for F32), but certainly not significantly enough to warrant me bidding. 

Thats a good one Mike and not worth bothering about looking for another.

[RLC35]

On 6/19/2018 at 2:41 PM, zookeeperz said:

N over N. Who gave the coin that description? If it were a sideways N the foot would be at the top not the bottom and there would be a cross where the center downstrokes merge. Not a N 

 

If anyone is looking for a really nice N over Z (F10A), I just put a nice one on ebay, from the "Edinburgh Collection". Pardon the glare on the pics. 15% off to Forum Members.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/283076180655?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

 

[PWA 1967]

How much is that in £s Bob ?.

Couple on there  that look familiar 

Edited July 28, 2018 by PWA 1967

[Michael-Roo]

Around £1,830 Pete. 

[secret santa]

On 7/3/2018 at 7:03 PM, 1949threepence said:

In fact I have now purchased the new 2016 edition of Freeman's "The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain 1860 to 1970", as a bargain £7.50 off e bay. Turning instantly to the 1860 types on pages 29 to 30, I note that in fact type 10A does not exist, and can only conclude that dnw have made it up. Unless anyone knows to the contrary?  

DNW do indeed make up variety references - they also persistently quote a Bamford number against pennies which is absolute nonsense. These numbers are simply the lot number from the Laurie Bamford sale and bear no resemblance to any unique identifier or variety. I've emailed them to this effect but got no response or acknowledgement.

[1949threepence]

7 minutes ago, secret santa said:

DNW do indeed make up variety references - they also persistently quote a Bamford number against pennies which is absolute nonsense. These numbers are simply the lot number from the Laurie Bamford sale and bear no resemblance to any unique identifier or variety. I've emailed them to this effect but got no response or acknowledgement.

I mean, 10A would fit perfectly, but it's just not a real Freeman type. 

Highly regrettable that they indulge in such tactics.

[RLC35]

21 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I mean, 10A would fit perfectly, but it's just not a real Freeman type. 

Highly regrettable that they indulge in such tactics.

I agree Mike, I only used 10A because they had used it at DNW. I think I will change it to F10.

[1949threepence]

26 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

I agree Mike, I only used 10A because they had used it at DNW. I think I will change it to F10.

It's misleading Bob, misled both of us. When I first saw it on the dnw site, I genuinely thought it might be a new type, which is why I bought the up to date 2016 Freeman book, expecting to see it in there.

Somebody, somewhere, has deliberately made that up. 

What's the modern expression? - fake news 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by 1949threepence