Penny Acquisition of the week

[Rob]

6 hours ago, alfnail said:

I do like pennies - they just have to be a thousand years old

[blakeyboy]

On 4/15/2020 at 11:24 PM, Martinminerva said:

Very interesting to learn therefore that at least 2 dies must have been used for these "bisects"! It prompted me to check mine...

Like you, Jerry, I have found that I have 3 of the original BP1898B variety (one near ef, the other two only fair) but pleasingly my other one (sadly only fair again) turns out to be a BP1898Ba type. I know this is a very small sample size, but 3 to 1 might just about be representative??

Any other members got one/more than one to push the sample group bigger? Indeed, any guesses as to how many of either type are now known?

 

I've just got mine all in one place for once,, ranging from UNC to Fair,.

There are nine of them, all with the 8 just to the right of  a gap, and one has the 8 over a tooth.

Only in Fair, but that'll do for now.

So an 8:1 ratio for me.

[Peckris 2]

4 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

I've just got mine all in one place for once,, ranging from UNC to Fair,.

There are nine of them, all with the 8 just to the right of  a gap, and one has the 8 over a tooth.

Only in Fair, but that'll do for now.

So an 8:1 ratio for me.

OH pennies are very commonly found with variations of the position of the final digit. Arguably 1899 has the record for most variations. Are they true varieties or just carelessness with punching that final numeral as also occurs on the 1861-63 pennies? However if they float your boat then all power to your elbow.

[blakeyboy]

2 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

OH pennies are very commonly found with variations of the position of the final digit. Arguably 1899 has the record for most variations. Are they true varieties or just carelessness with punching that final numeral as also occurs on the 1861-63 pennies? However if they float your boat then all power to your elbow.

Maybe even more varieties than your idioms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

[alfnail]

12 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

OH pennies are very commonly found with variations of the position of the final digit. Arguably 1899 has the record for most variations. Are they true varieties or just carelessness with punching that final numeral as also occurs on the 1861-63 pennies? However if they float your boat then all power to your elbow. 

True, but the 1898 Old Head is probably worthy of a bit more discussion as the final 8 is sometimes seen with the 'bisect' font which was NEVER used on any other OH year, and ALWAYS used on Victorian BUN Head pennies...……..so to see multiple 'bisect' dies, i.e. Gouby's 1898B, and the suggested new type 1898Ba (both with this much rarer font) I think is of interest. Also, MG thought that date width variations warranted more general recording in his 2009 book, and many collectors now use that as their main point of reference. 

[1949threepence]

14 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

OH pennies are very commonly found with variations of the position of the final digit. Arguably 1899 has the record for most variations. Are they true varieties or just carelessness with punching that final numeral as also occurs on the 1861-63 pennies? However if they float your boat then all power to your elbow.

I think the 1898 bisect is interesting because it is intentional. Although why one eight would be altered and not the other, is a mystery. Possibly built that way by a mint member of staff without proper regard to the usual eight, when the 1898 dies were built. Then (maybe) noticed later on and scrapped. Or was it just one or two dies that were either never noticed, or noticed and the difference regarded as so minor that it was ignored?

Incidentally, I'd also include 1864 in the final numeral discrepancies of 1861 to 63. The crosslet 4 is often seen well to the right, and badly struck (faint). 

[terrysoldpennies]

Maybe it was an 8 that was used on another coin that was in production at the same time in the mint for another country, and accidently found its way into the box of fonts used in the production of the British one penny  ? 

[1949threepence]

With acknowledgements to the seller @oldcopper I'm very pleased to have won this superb 1882H Freeman 114. Surprisingly difficult to obtain - for example only two on LCA site over the past 17 odd years (the other three shown are 115's misattributed as 114's. I've been trying to get a decent one for a number of years.

Not room on this post for both sides, so posting obverse on another post. 

 

  

[1949threepence]

F114 obverse

 

[ozjohn]

Nice coin. I f you had issues i including both the obverse and reverse of the coin on one post you could use an image processing app to crop the images, combine into one image and then resize into a file size  of .49 MB that the Predecimal For,um supports. One called Infan View will do this for you. It can be downloaded for free.

[blakeyboy]

...and halve your reputation points.....:)

[1949threepence]

28 minutes ago, ozjohn said:

Nice coin. I f you had issues i including both the obverse and reverse of the coin on one post you could use an image processing app to crop the images, combine into one image and then resize into a file size  of .49 MB that the Predecimal For,um supports. One called Infan View will do this for you. It can be downloaded for free.

I normally can fit them both onto the same post, but for whatever reason it just didn't work this time, the size of the pictures being too large. Despite the actions being the same as before. 

Obviously there's some logical reason, be it do do with the way I took and subsequently stored the pics, or something else. But on this occasion I just couldn't be bothered to spend time sorting it out. I will do so next time.   

[secret santa]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:14 PM, 1949threepence said:

1882H Freeman 114

Might this be a 2 over 1, Mike ? Freeman states that sometimes the minutest trace of the 1 can be seen and your photo suggests something at the top of the 2.

[Iannich48]

28 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Might this be a 2 over 1, Mike ? Freeman states that sometimes the minutest trace of the 1 can be seen and your photo suggests something at the top of the 2.

Well spotted Richard, it certainly looks possible.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Might this be a 2 over 1, Mike ? Freeman states that sometimes the minutest trace of the 1 can be seen and your photo suggests something at the top of the 2.

Co-incidentally, Richard, the same thought fleetingly crossed my mind when I originally looked at DNW's blown up pic of the coin. I thought I could detect the very tiniest protrusion at the top of the 2,  see here : but I dismissed the notion on the grounds that F111 2/1's have obverse 11, with the distinctly hooked nose, whereas this coin looks like obverse 12, longer nose, although still slightly uneven, fitting the profile of obverse 12. 

Unless, of course, 1882's, other than the 111, also have the 2/1 overstrike? I can't seem to find the bit where Freeman was referring to the minutest trace of the 1, you refer to above. Was he implying specimens other than the 111? I do know that the 1882 2/1 is almost invariably much less obvious than, say, the 1865 5/3.   

ETA: Ah, so they do. Just seen the one in your collection, and indeed, the protrusion towards the top right of the two, is in exactly the same place. So yes, a definite possibility. Thanks for pointing it out.   

Edited May 1, 2020 by 1949threepence

[Rob]

The only 1882/1H I've had was quite obviously so despite being F-VF. I was surprised to sell this fairly grotty thing on ebay in 2008 for about £50. I didn't keep the picture because it didn't strike me as desirable considering the nicer examples of 1882/1 out there.

[alfnail]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Unless, of course, 1882's, other than the 111, also have the 2/1 overstrike? I can't seem to find the bit where Freeman was referring to the minutest trace of the 1, you refer to above. Was he implying specimens other than the 111?

Hi Mike,  the F114 is sometimes seen with 2/1, but it is less obvious than on the F111. On Gouby Page 79, his 1882Ma, he says "The only part of the 1 that can be seen, on this example, is the small portion that sticks, centrally, half way up the 2"

On more than one occasion I have also seen a tiny additional protrusion to the top left hand side of the numeral 2, which I think is most likely the top left corner of the top bar of the underneath numeral 1. I feel that this may be an even better indicator of this variety than the protrusion on the inner curve.....which always seems to be weak to the point of doubting the variety. When one considers the combination of these two tiny protrusions I think that gives increased confidence in confirming type. Here is a picture of my own specimen for illustration

 

[alfnail]

Here's my F111 example, Gouby Kb for comparison. 

Clearly much easier to spot than the F114 (Ma)

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by alfnail
speller

[1949threepence]

Thanks Ian - very useful and informative info.

Also just had a look at Gouby P79. 

[PWA 1967]

A newly attributed wide date ,now BP1890Ad.

Edited May 2, 2020 by PWA 1967

[PWA 1967]

One of my better buys £60 from LCA 1854 DOT.

Not purchased this week ,although not put it on before 😃

Edited May 2, 2020 by PWA 1967

[secret santa]

On this F114 it looks as though all the date numerals have been double struck including the underlying 1 (which is logical as it's part of the die).

[alfnail]

Looks like it's got that tiny protrusion top left as well Richard

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

On this F114 it looks as though all the date numerals have been double struck including the underlying 1 (which is logical as it's part of the die).

Very clear example. 

[Peckris 2]

7 hours ago, secret santa said:

On this F114 it looks as though all the date numerals have been double struck including the underlying 1 (which is logical as it's part of the die).

"Double struck" as opposed to double punched? Yes, I'd concur - the linear circle shows the same phenomenon.