More Pennies

[alfnail]

I never knew that Dynamo collected pennies!!

Victoria, 1862 Bun head Penny, 2nd portrait - VF, Obv #6..................[5632] | eBay

 

[PWA 1967]

Anyone else noticed over the last 12 months that more and more Copper and Bronze pennies are being sold that have been cleaned and dipped in TONING FLUID.

There has always been a few and a collection sold at auction about 12 months ago had a lot in ,that i do know as returned three.

However there are now dozens which IMO means that maybe some sellers are not doing it to the odd one but doing it intentionally to increase the sale price which in some cases has been ridiculous.

I have put the links to show the cleaning and toning fluid due to being able to use the magnifier and not to target the two sellers as lots of coins not just on eBay are the same.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354391557616

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165877079811

Maybe some collectors dont mind and prefer them to look this way ,although maybe some especially new collectors dont know.

[Old Money]

55 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Anyone else noticed over the last 12 months that more and more Copper and Bronze pennies are being sold that have been cleaned and dipped in TONING FLUID.

There has always been a few and a collection sold at auction about 12 months ago had a lot in ,that i do know as returned three.

However there are now dozens which IMO means that maybe some sellers are not doing it to the odd one but doing it intentionally to increase the sale price which in some cases has been ridiculous.

I have put the links to show the cleaning and toning fluid due to being able to use the magnifier and not to target the two sellers as lots of coins not just on eBay are the same.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354391557616

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165877079811

Maybe some collectors dont mind and prefer them to look this way ,although maybe some especially new collectors dont know.

So very obvious to an experienced collector, condition of the coin is not consistent with lustre/tone

[mick1271]

1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

Anyone else noticed over the last 12 months that more and more Copper and Bronze pennies are being sold that have been cleaned and dipped in TONING FLUID.

There has always been a few and a collection sold at auction about 12 months ago had a lot in ,that i do know as returned three.

However there are now dozens which IMO means that maybe some sellers are not doing it to the odd one but doing it intentionally to increase the sale price which in some cases has been ridiculous.

I have put the links to show the cleaning and toning fluid due to being able to use the magnifier and not to target the two sellers as lots of coins not just on eBay are the same.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354391557616

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165877079811

Maybe some collectors dont mind and prefer them to look this way ,although maybe some especially new collectors dont know.

The 1875H is an odd looking coin . The colour isn't attractive and it has obviously been interfered with .The even colour throughout even on the high points is a give away that something has been done to it recently . I don't mind the 1934 , for a mint toned coin , it isn't obvious that it has been artificially toned .It may have been gived a wipe and toned like that afterwards (I suppose that could be argued as artificially toned ). As you say , not everyones cup of tea. I struggle to see the 1875H appealling to anyone who was looking to spend  that amount on an 1875H .

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by mick1271

[DrLarry]

yes it is very odd looking that 75H she looks as if she has been down the ORANGE -OUTang  Tanning unit to give her an all over coppery feel ...along with some cosmetic surgery ....still at that price I am not surprised 

Edited January 9, 2023 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

Tell me about Toning Fluid please?  I could look it up but I am sure I will get a much more colourful description from you guys 

[PWA 1967]

6 hours ago, DrLarry said:

Tell me about Toning Fluid please?  I could look it up but I am sure I will get a much more colourful description from you guys 

I am sick of seeing them for sale and dont want to encourage others to start using it if they read the forum and think they look much better.

Not long ago a friend of mine bought one and mailed me pictures saying" this coin looks like its been in brown sauce ,its even got brown marks on the paper envelope " 😂

BOTH the coins have been in it above ,its just like any dipping solution and the stronger the mix or longer its left in the darker it goes.However if the coins been heavily cleaned and in parts down to the base metal this will appear lighter than other areas.

Its used not just on cleaned coins but can be used on anything to brighten the colour up and make them (in the sellers opinion ) look more attractive.

I have some before and after pictures if you are interested of dipped copper / bronze coins and happy to share the types of toning fluid BUT not on here ,just send me a message if you wish.

[secret santa]

I'd like to see the before/after pics, please.

[PWA 1967]

On 12/13/2022 at 12:06 PM, PWA 1967 said:

1933 Penny in the signature sale at Heritage ,although graded as currency and thought to be a proof 😀

George V Penny 1933 MS63 Brown NGC, Royal mint, KM838 (Rare), | LotID #62002 | Heritage Auctions (ha.com)

$240,000 😀

The Edward V111 brass threepence sold for  $140,000 😯

Edited January 10, 2023 by PWA 1967

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

On 12/13/2022 at 7:06 AM, PWA 1967 said:

1933 Penny in the signature sale at Heritage ,although graded as currency and thought to be a proof 😀

George V Penny 1933 MS63 Brown NGC, Royal mint, KM838 (Rare), | LotID #62002 | Heritage Auctions (ha.com)

$240,000 😀

The Edward V111 brass threepence sold for  $140,000 😯

Actually Pete, the Edward VIII brass 3 pence, sold for $144,000 ($120,000 + $24,000).

You're correct with the 1933 Penny, $240,000  ($200,000 + $40,000)

[DrLarry]

8 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

I am sick of seeing them for sale and dont want to encourage others to start using it if they read the forum and think they look much better.

Not long ago a friend of mine bought one and mailed me pictures saying" this coin looks like its been in brown sauce ,its even got brown marks on the paper envelope " 😂

BOTH the coins have been in it above ,its just like any dipping solution and the stronger the mix or longer its left in the darker it goes.However if the coins been heavily cleaned and in parts down to the base metal this will appear lighter than other areas.

Its used not just on cleaned coins but can be used on anything to brighten the colour up and make them (in the sellers opinion ) look more attractive.

I have some before and after pictures if you are interested of dipped copper / bronze coins and happy to share the types of toning fluid BUT not on here ,just send me a message if you wish.

to be honest I am interested in your opinion but wanted to know what they were and how they worked so I would still like to know what they are.  It is entirely up to whoever wants or does not want to use them,  I very much would hope that no one would alter coins on this forumit was the chemistry that interested me 

[blakeyboy]

Is it the same as the hypo used at the mint?

[1949threepence]

9 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Is it the same as the hypo used at the mint?

Possibly something similar. Actually I've got a 1935 penny which I think was dipped in hypo. We know virtually all 1934 pennies were, but 1935 specimens are a lot rarer, so I might just be being too optimistic. 

As far as dipped coins generally, the US market seems a lot more tolerant of this than we do. Hence the complete blue ruination of a once very nice 1859 proof. 

 

 

 

 

[Kipster]

This is all very interesting. I'd seen something bandied around about toning coins on one of the other forums, but thought it related to silver coins rather than copper/bronze. Looking at that 1975H, I'd have a job spotting the difference between natural toning and artificial from the pics, but may have a better idea in hand. Something else to watch out for.

Every day's a school day. 👍

[blakeyboy]

6 minutes ago, Kipster said:

This is all very interesting. I'd seen something bandied around about toning coins on one of the other forums, but thought it related to silver coins rather than copper/bronze. Looking at that 1975H, I'd have a job spotting the difference between natural toning and artificial from the pics, but may have a better idea in hand. Something else to watch out for.

Every day's a school day. 👍

I like to think about it like this:

At the two ends of a coin's desirability, you have 'Mint State' ( made this morning)

'and where the hell has this been' ( on the beach for 100 years ).

Both these types would be expected to have an even patina or finish. In fact, not having an even finish would be unusual.

Now what if the coin had a few year's wear, so that the patina was different on the high spots, and this coin was then lost- fell down the back of a drawer, put in a box in the loft for years, etc etc.....yes, there is a chance that a new patina would develop that could cover up the differences in patination between the high and low spots.  Perhaps, but these types of places for a coin to go are relatively benign - not really patina-forming.

There are places that a coin could sit for years and change its overall appearance, like when fallen under floorboards onto damp ground beneath,

or at the back of a drawer like as above, BUT -  why would both sides look the same?

One side has been open to the 'elements' rather more than the other.....

When you see one coin like the one above, you have to take notice. This doesn't mean it's been played with.

However, when you suddenly see several pop up from the same type of sellers, with no older pictures of the coins available to compare with,

you have to start to wonder......the same is true of the multicoloured horrors that have strangely appeared for sale in the US amongst the less

well- known dealers.....:-)

 

[Kipster]

3 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

I like to think about it like this:

At the two ends of a coin's desirability, you have 'Mint State' ( made this morning)

'and where the hell has this been' ( on the beach for 100 years ).

Both these types would be expected to have an even patina or finish. In fact, not having an even finish would be unusual.

Now what if the coin had a few year's wear, so that the patina was different on the high spots, and this coin was then lost- fell down the back of a drawer, put in a box in the loft for years, etc etc.....yes, there is a chance that a new patina would develop that could cover up the differences in patination between the high and low spots.  Perhaps, but these types of places for a coin to go are relatively benign - not really patina-forming.

There are places that a coin could sit for years and change its overall appearance, like when fallen under floorboards onto damp ground beneath,

or at the back of a drawer like as above, BUT -  why would both sides look the same?

One side has been open to the 'elements' rather more than the other.....

When you see one coin like the one above, you have to take notice. This doesn't mean it's been played with.

However, when you suddenly see several pop up from the same type of sellers, with no older pictures of the coins available to compare with,

you have to start to wonder......the same is true of the multicoloured horrors that have strangely appeared for sale in the US amongst the less

well- known dealers.....:-)

 

Lack of experience on my part, perhaps a little wet behind the ears about something looking quite sharp but not looking at other factors. Trawling through the pages of interweb as I do, I do a bit of digging when provenance is mentioned. There's a coin up for sale I looked at recently and details of the previous coins auction history etc, but comparing the pics, it looks like some of the deposits/marks have been removed subsequently. May be the light, but it put me off.

I need to get out and handle more coins, broaden the eye.

 

[blakeyboy]

Well done! It's all a bit of a minefield.

 

I still think ( passionately) that the fun in coin collecting is the surprise at the bottom of the 'tin of crap'

rather than simply buying from sites or auctions.  You will get more fun, more profit, and better stories out of your efforts if you go trawling.

 

Sometimes the stories are the best bit......

[1949threepence]

7 hours ago, Kipster said:

Lack of experience on my part, perhaps a little wet behind the ears about something looking quite sharp but not looking at other factors. Trawling through the pages of interweb as I do, I do a bit of digging when provenance is mentioned. There's a coin up for sale I looked at recently and details of the previous coins auction history etc, but comparing the pics, it looks like some of the deposits/marks have been removed subsequently. May be the light, but it put me off.

I need to get out and handle more coins, broaden the eye.

 

I really appreciate provenance, but it is depressingly scarce, even on rare coins. 

Oh to buy a coin with a list of buyers, sellers and dates, with receipts. A dream. 

[secret santa]

13 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I really appreciate provenance, but it is depressingly scarce, even on rare coins. 

Oh to buy a coin with a list of buyers, sellers and dates, with receipts. A dream. 

Absolutely, auction houses nowadays don't seem to value it or think that buyers might be interested. The 1933 penny is the only example that I can think of that attracts that level of information, but it is a bit special.

[Rob]

Here you go. A penny, albeit silver and hammered, but a decent provenance. Six quid in Cuff.

J D Cuff 1041, Sotheby 8/6/1854

E Wigan, collection bought Rollin & Feuardent 1872

H Webb 309, Sotheby 9/7/1894

H Clark 155, Sotheby 23/5/1898

A A Banes 57, Sotheby 30/10/1922

E H Wheeler 342, Sotheby 12/3/1930

C Corbally Browne 409, Sotheby 25/3/1935

W L Raynes 473, Glendining 15/2/1950

Spink 6, lot 589, 10/10/1979

R D Shuttlewood 301, Spink 15/3/2001

C Comber

[Rob]

44 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I really appreciate provenance, but it is depressingly scarce, even on rare coins. 

Oh to buy a coin with a list of buyers, sellers and dates, with receipts. A dream. 

 

32 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Absolutely, auction houses nowadays don't seem to value it or think that buyers might be interested. The 1933 penny is the only example that I can think of that attracts that level of information, but it is a bit special.

I think you have to put it into context for bronze pennies. Take a collector of pennies in 1894 as an example. You are still in the period of the bun head, so the design is essentially the same as in 1860. The value of an 1860 penny would be little more than a few pence even in 1894, so it is unlikely any of the major collections would have an example. A comparison would be a modern day major collection that had a 1988 to 2023 penny date run in it! Nobody would give a damn. You have to wait until the publication of things like Peck to provide the documentary background for what is essentially a date run collection with a few varieties for certain dates. A few acknowledged rarities with a healthy following will also help as it generates interest from people with deeper pockets. A collection has to be practically complete as per a reference and in high grade (or one of the highest available in the case of rarities) to become a recognised major collection. Historical major collections were type collections with a good smattering of 'best knowns'. It is therefore unlikely that many bronze pennies will have a pre-Peck provenance, and I would suggest that any proofs probably came from either Montagu's extensive milled collection sold through Spink in 1890 (and significantly, documented), or Saward (1910).

 

[1949threepence]

I wouldn't expect anything I buy to have provenance extending back to the 19th century. Nonetheless, some bronze/copper coins have been in major collections for decades, and it's always great to see some reference to that.

For example if you take the coin I've just bought - the BMC 2088. If the example sold by Freeman in 1984 (lot 252) came up for sale, the seller could quote ex Freeman October 1984, C.W.Peck, and Foster October 1953 as past owners.  

Occasionally the evidence is there, and even if sourced from more modest collections, it's always interesting. 

[PWA 1967]

Although advanced collectors may be able to tell if coins have been dipped watching some sell recently i am concerned new collectors dont know and paying to much.

Collectors maybe buying them thinking they are ok and maybe buying others from the same sellers.That IMO is fine if they know what they are buying ,however the prices people are paying i dont believe they do.

Begginers (or any collector for that matter ) IMO need to be able to tell what they are looking for as the sellers are not going to tell them they are dipping them.

Anyone have any opinion on these ?

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by PWA 1967

[PWA 1967]

This is the farthing a couple of days before it was re-sold for a lot more 👎

1849 Queen Victoria Farthing | eBay

I have no problem people buying them and selling for a profit its what makes the world go round ,however some people are buying them and altering the appearance solely to perhaps mislead people,it would not be so bad on the odd one maybe BUT there are loads of them.

Edited January 12, 2023 by PWA 1967

[mrbadexample]

Is it just me who thinks that's not a bad job of removing the crud from the farthing?