More Pennies

[azda]

 

 

https://www.ngccoin.uk/news/article/8133/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTkRCbE5tRTFNV0k1WldabCIsInQiOiJWZzBJXC9tVFE0NjBHVGoxOG5KenB2R0xvblNhUnpcL3I1TTRDWFJ0aFZTdlE4Z2VYMnk1K0wzbFo1S1wvaU9YbEw4RXJvUFlkMmtyc1FGa0lmdWtrdnJSaFd4aDFoRUtNXC9JbnJMTWk4WjRqcjBYK2YzK2JpbkpQMENmcHVaM1h5cjYifQ%3D%3D#utm_source=The Mx Group&utm_medium=Email Blast&utm_campaign=20-NGUK-0032 NGC Certifies Unique British Penny eBlast

Edited April 13, 2020 by azda

[Sleepy]

Is that the same one sold by Rasmussen in 2006?

[Diaconis]

Yes it is. Add another £40k since Mark Rasmussen last sold it in 2018. 30% uplift isn't bad IF they can sell it this year with the added NGC hype. I have my doubts though. Despite all the comparisons in their ad copy to 1933 examples, I'd still prefer a 1933 example at that price.

By the way, do any of you know if the Royal Mint has confirmed that it is unique and not that another will turn up on Ebay in a battered old tin of pennies 'found in Marleybob's attic'?

[1949threepence]

Found an interesting article by M. Mapleton in the February 1971 edition of Coin Monthly, on the general topic of die No's under dates. Specifically mentioned at points in the article are the die numbers under 1863 pennies and die letters on 1862 halfpennies. These remain as big a mystery today as they were nearly 50 years ago. 

According to the article, the Royal Mint kept no records as to why the die numbers were used, and we are just left with the theories of either experimentation to test die wear or a means of identifying an individual operative.

Anyway, here is the article in its entirety for anyone interested. They're not brilliant photos, so apologies for that, but they are readable:-

 

 

      

Edited April 19, 2020 by 1949threepence

[Peckris 2]

I've always thought the die numbers on bronze were simply an experiment before using them on silver.

[1949threepence]

11 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

I've always thought the die numbers on bronze were simply an experiment before using them on silver.

You mean in a sort of "Try them out in a limited dummy run on the bronze first" type of way?  

[Rob]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

I've always thought the die numbers on bronze were simply an experiment before using them on silver.

But to what end? The penny die is much bigger compared to the shillings or sixpences and the coins are in different metals and thicknesses. I'm not sure what you could compare. Maybe if they had used die numbers on the halfcrowns it might have stood comparison.

[JLS]

My guess would be that there's something else going on with the dies, a bit like the broken bead on the recessed ear pennies. Perhaps there were five subtly different dies which they numbered up accordingly, to allow them and the coins produced to be distinguished at a glance. They made a small number of coins from each (maybe double figures ?), deemed the results unsatisfactory, and for some reason the coins were added to the mint output rather than melted down. 

If this was the case, I doubt it will ever be confirmed, given the poor state of the surviving examples. 

 

 

[1949threepence]

8 hours ago, Rob said:

But to what end? The penny die is much bigger compared to the shillings or sixpences and the coins are in different metals and thicknesses. I'm not sure what you could compare. Maybe if they had used die numbers on the halfcrowns it might have stood comparison.

 

7 hours ago, JLS said:

My guess would be that there's something else going on with the dies, a bit like the broken bead on the recessed ear pennies. Perhaps there were five subtly different dies which they numbered up accordingly, to allow them and the coins produced to be distinguished at a glance. They made a small number of coins from each (maybe double figures ?), deemed the results unsatisfactory, and for some reason the coins were added to the mint output rather than melted down. 

If this was the case, I doubt it will ever be confirmed, given the poor state of the surviving examples. 

 

 

The problem is that we always were, and still remain, totally clueless as to what the actual reasons were, and will continue as such until, and if (seems highly improbable), some document is discovered which throws light on the matter. Clearly the issue is not one of any great importance, was no doubt very quickly forgotten by all involved, and the reasons never passed on to succeeding generations of mint workers - or anybody else for that matter.   

As for mintage possibly around 10k of each reached circulation, given the tiny numbers now extant. Can't see there being many more for the simple reason that none were collected in the early days, and if the mintage had been higher, they would have reached a wider cohort of the public, and been noticed by collectors of the time. We know that because none are in especially high grade. It was obviously much later when the first specimens were identified and put aside. Not sure when that was either - pre Peck, but no clear indication of roughly when. 

[Peckris 2]

22 hours ago, Rob said:

But to what end? The penny die is much bigger compared to the shillings or sixpences and the coins are in different metals and thicknesses. I'm not sure what you could compare. Maybe if they had used die numbers on the halfcrowns it might have stood comparison.

Agreed, but it's kind of telling that they were used on bronze in a very limited way just before they came in for silver.

[alfnail]

Thought this 1890 at auction today looked a bit different to any I have seen before, with higher rotated numeral 9. Was a bit tempted to have a bid but then realised it was Stacks Bowers and last item I bought from them (for $110)  I had to pay an additional $60 shipping + $35 Wire Fee

[blakeyboy]

Oh wow- I'm looking for 'dropped' 90 types nearly every day, so over the last few years I must have looked at thousands and found _one_ on Ebay,

one  amongst  all 1890's I've ever had, and that's it.

It that time I've NEVER seen that rotated 9....

[1949threepence]

46 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Oh wow- I'm looking for 'dropped' 90 types nearly every day, so over the last few years I must have looked at thousands and found _one_ on Ebay,

one  amongst  all 1890's I've ever had, and that's it.

It that time I've NEVER seen that rotated 9....

Did you get it?

[terrysoldpennies]

1 hour ago, alfnail said:

Thought this 1890 at auction today looked a bit different to any I have seen before, with higher rotated numeral 9. Was a bit tempted to have a bid but then realised it was Stacks Bowers and last item I bought from them (for $110)  I had to pay an additional $60 shipping + $35 Wire Fee

 

19 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Oh wow- I'm looking for 'dropped' 90 types nearly every day, so over the last few years I must have looked at thousands and found _one_ on Ebay,

one  amongst  all 1890's I've ever had, and that's it.

It that time I've NEVER seen that rotated 9....

I see that the rotated 9 type you've posted Ian is a 15 tooth example , I also have a similar one with 14 teeth , the bottom one of the group of three

Blakey , is the raised up 9 type that your after, the one below , its the 14 tooth type listed by Gouby.    There are two other 14 tooth types that ive come across , the bottom one in the group of three pictured has the normal digit spacing with the slightly rotated 9, and the third type on the last coin below, which has the 9 and 8 very close like the raised 9 type, but has all the digits in a straight line , its not listed by Gouby

[blakeyboy]

12 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Did you get it?

yes- I put it on here last year...can't remember what thread...

I still have worn example that turned up 30 years ago that I kept as a curio when i couldn't find anything about this variety.

[blakeyboy]

5 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

 

 

Blakey , is the raised up 9 type that your after, the one below , its the 14 tooth type listed by Gouby.    There are two other 14 tooth types that ive come across , the bottom one in the group of three pictured has the normal digit spacing with the slightly rotated 9, and the third type on the last coin below, which has the 9 and 8 very close like the raised 9 type, but has all the digits in a straight line , its not listed by Gouby

 

I will dig out what I think I have- I haven't up till now looked hard for the different types- the dropped 90 was until recently the only one I was going for...

[blakeyboy]

found the picture

[secret santa]

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, Terry's penny doesn't look "as rotated" as Ian's picture ?

[alfnail]

10 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Oh wow- I'm looking for 'dropped' 90 types nearly every day, so over the last few years I must have looked at thousands and found _one_ on Ebay,

one  amongst  all 1890's I've ever had, and that's it.

It that time I've NEVER seen that rotated 9....

There was an 1890Aa (dropped 90) sold on ebay in February 2013 as a Buy it Now, for around £30 from memory. Wasn't listed as that type though.

I actually advised someone else about it and think he purchased as a result. I wasn't into the date width variations at that time...….still not really...unless very peculiar.

I bet that Rob is enjoying this thread 🤣  

[terrysoldpennies]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, Terry's penny doesn't look "as rotated" as Ian's picture ?

I think your right Richard , there really are lots of types . 

[secret santa]

8 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

I think your right Richard , there really are lots of types .

Yes, Gouby doesn't list this one.

[Paddy]

That is a beauty! I would hang on to that one for sure!

 

[Peckris 2]

6 hours ago, Paddy said:

That is a beauty! I would hang on to that one for sure!

 

As the bishop said to the actress...

[Zo Arms]

On 12/8/2019 at 9:31 AM, terrysoldpennies said:

I have a few of what you would call dot / comer pennies . and in most cases they are never perfectly round as is the case with the 1897 , and I think this is because they were caused by a crack in the die having small pieces braking away , and then the sharp edges smoothing and rounding off.      Below is an unlisted 1934 penny with an extra dot, caused I think by a die crack.

A dot and a die crack

[Zo Arms]

On 12/8/2019 at 10:05 AM, alfnail said:

Round dot with die crack.....but which was there first?

Dot and a die crack