Ebay's Worst Offerings

[JLS]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-1847-PLAIN-EDGE-VICTORIA-GOTHIC-CROWN-SOLID-SILVER-COIN-MY-GRADE-EF/123634333144

Bidding at £2,160...

The seller is previously of "I want a house for my £1 coin" fame. My feeling is that the edge photo is insufficiently clear (could be ex-mount ?). What do you all think ? 

Edited February 14, 2019 by JLS

[azda]

8 hours ago, JLS said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-1847-PLAIN-EDGE-VICTORIA-GOTHIC-CROWN-SOLID-SILVER-COIN-MY-GRADE-EF/123634333144

Bidding at £2,160...

The seller is previously of "I want a house for my £1 coin" fame. My feeling is that the edge photo is insufficiently clear (could be ex-mount ?). What do you all think ? 

Why not ask the question and also ask for pics of the rim?

[Paddy]

I no likee. The English lions on the reverse look very worn for what should be a proof coin - and as the rest of the coin shows virtually no wear, where did that come from? If a weak strike then that does not fit with proof...

All that combined with the seller's reputation means I would not be risking my hard-earned cash in that direction.

 

[jelida]

It is also I suspect a fake. It has the tiny rim nick above the trefoil after GRATIA that seems diagnostic.

https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=146846

And I think other features. Of course this was always the likely option, how would a girl who works in Greggs and can’t get a loan be in possession of a genuine Gothic Crown? And the toning is deeply suspicious.

Jerry

[Nick]

Zero chance of being genuine.

[JLS]

Looking at the bidding the first bid as well as a later one were from accounts with 0 or 1 feedback...perhaps not just a dodgy coin. 

[azda]

Buying these from ebay is as dangerous as riding a bike on a tightrope across the grand canyon without knowing how to ride a bike

[Unwilling Numismatist]

It's better than the usual offerings on aliexpress etc, but as Jerry said - the thread on coincommunity would be the one to look for regarding the edge nick etc.

Personally I think I'll stay out of this as I have proven before that I don't know enough about these yet, and will continue my reading and learning in silence

 

[Diaconis]

49 minutes ago, azda said:

Buying these from ebay is as dangerous as riding a bike on a tightrope across the grand canyon without knowing how to ride a bike

or as dangerous as playing russian roulette, but then again, 5 out of 6 scientists say russian roulette is safe.

[azda]

Saw this written by someone on ebay

 

Buyer beware! In recent months there has been a rise in fake coins being sold as genuine on eBay, often selling for hundreds of pounds! I have made this guide to help buyers spot fakes and not make an expensive mistake. This guide only refers to forgeries of British silver milled coins, although I believe this is a problem that extends to other coins that are not my area of expertise. Please note I plan to add to this guide in the future with images of forgeries to aid identification.

Coins to look out for

Below I have made a list of forgeries with details that are relevant to that particular coin. I must stress that this is not an exhaustive list, the variety of forgeries is so vast that for some eras it would be quicker to list the coins that are not forged! These are just the forgeries seem to crop up most regularly.

• A large variety of Early Milled Crowns, these have slightly differing designs and are without edge lettering.
• 1818 and 1822 Crowns (Both without edge lettering)
• Young Head Crowns (1839, 1844, 1845, 1847): Struck from a newly engraved die, overly detailed to the Queen’s hair perhaps more so than a genuine uncirculated coin. A number of these have sold on eBay described as genuine and have sold for large sums.
• 1847 Gothic Crown, typically a better quality cast copy, also exists as a high quality silver forgery.
• All other Victoria Crown dates (quite inaccurate designs).
• Wreath Crowns (1927-1936, all dates), Better quality cast copies, also exist as high quality silver forgeries (1928, 1933, 1934 in particular, typically with raised bubbles in the fields).
• George III Halfcrowns (1817-1820), varying quality. The 1818 exists as a higher quality silver forgery (unlike the original the forgery has a 180 degree die rotation).
• Victoria Young Head Halfcrowns: All dates 1840 thru 1887 including some dates in which the coins were not struck. Varying quality cast forgery, all dates have the lower relief 1880-1887 design, commonly described as genuine on eBay. The 1853 coin (which was only struck as a proof) has sold for large sums in the past.
• Later Victoria and Edward VII Halfcrowns (all dates), typically low quality inaccurate designs. 1905 exists as a high quality silver forgery (wonky I in QVI)
• 1849 Godless Florin, better quality silver forgery (typically out of synch die rotation, stones to the edge resemble teeth in places).
• 1864 Gothic Florin (die no. 64) exists in varying quality including as a high quality silver forgery.
• 1877 Gothic Florin (has been misdescribed as other dates including 1870). Struck from a newly engraved die but with a relatively accurate design.
• 1763 ‘Northumberland’ Shilling, Varying quality including Silver forgeries.
• Victoria Young Head Shillings, usually dated 1850-53, low-mid grade cast copy.
• 1893 Jubilee Head Sixpence, low grade cast copy.

Where do the Fake Coins Come From?

While forgeries have been around for a long time in more modest numbers, in around 2013 a huge variety of forgeries became available for purchase on a popular Chinese online marketplace. These coins were (and still are) available for purchase in wholesale numbers for often less than £1 each. In recent months I have been emailed numerous times by wholesale sellers in China advertising their fake coins. 

Sellers of Fake Coins On eBay

While the majority of sellers of coins on eBay are trustworthy and only sell genuine coins, there are a number of sellers who sell these forgeries imported from China. Some of these sellers do clearly label these coins as forgeries and charge reasonable prices (although this still is against eBay policy, it doesn’t seem to be enforced). Others are less than clear about the authenticity and some describe fake coins as genuine, usually listing them in auction style listings to sell quickly. While I and I’m sure many other eBay members do report these listings, eBay does not always take them down before the listings end.

 

[secret santa]

I have been toying with the creation of (yet) another website on the subject of fake coins, showing pictures of known fakes alongside their genuine counterparts, as it seems to me that you need to look at the two side by side to really understand the differences. My questions are, therefore:

Does such a website already exist ?

Would this task be too huge to accomplish ?

[Peckris 2]

6 hours ago, Diaconis said:

or as dangerous as playing russian roulette, but then again, 5 out of 6 scientists say russian roulette is safe.

The 6th scientist made no comment...

[Rob]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I have been toying with the creation of (yet) another website on the subject of fake coins, showing pictures of known fakes alongside their genuine counterparts, as it seems to me that you need to look at the two side by side to really understand the differences. My questions are, therefore:

Does such a website already exist ?

Would this task be too huge to accomplish ?

Any effort is better than none.

Here's a couple to get you started. 1887 £2 & £5 known as 'Beirut' copies, as they came out of the middle-east in the 1960s. The degree of misalignment is as indicated. The weight is marginally down on the genuine article and the edge milling count is appropriately wrong. The mint analysed them in the late 60s and established them to be approx. 0.890 fine. Apart from that, there is nothing wrong with them.

[ozjohn]

Nothing wrong with them? They are fakes intended to deceive, underweight and fineness. That will do for start.

[mrbadexample]

5 hours ago, secret santa said:

I have been toying with the creation of (yet) another website on the subject of fake coins, showing pictures of known fakes alongside their genuine counterparts, as it seems to me that you need to look at the two side by side to really understand the differences. My questions are, therefore:

Does such a website already exist ?

Would this task be too huge to accomplish ?

I'd prefer it if you did halfpennies, in similar detail to your pennies.

Thanks.

[Rob]

3 hours ago, ozjohn said:

Nothing wrong with them? They are fakes intended to deceive, underweight and fineness. That will do for start.

That's a tongue in cheek nothing wrong. Having listed what is wrong with them, it is somewhat contradictory to then say they are good.

[Peckris 2]

20 hours ago, Rob said:

That's a tongue in cheek nothing wrong. Having listed what is wrong with them, it is somewhat contradictory to then say they are good.

He's a card, that Rob!

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

On 2/14/2019 at 8:48 PM, Rob said:

That's a tongue in cheek nothing wrong. Having listed what is wrong with them, it is somewhat contradictory to then say they are good.

I took it to mean, as others have in the past, merely that aside from from it being a fake, that there was still an intrinsic (albeit debased) gold value to the piece as it was not made from some base metal.

I did not presume it to mean that it was acceptable to use in place of a genuine coin in a collection.....

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[1949threepence]

On 2/14/2019 at 7:25 PM, secret santa said:

I have been toying with the creation of (yet) another website on the subject of fake coins, showing pictures of known fakes alongside their genuine counterparts, as it seems to me that you need to look at the two side by side to really understand the differences. My questions are, therefore:

Does such a website already exist ?

Would this task be too huge to accomplish ?

Great idea, Richard.

No idea if such a site already exists, and not sure whether too huge too accomplish. I'd imagine not, actually, as I can see it being a site which is started with the known fakes, and then frequently updated. So huge in the long term, but added to bit by useful bit, as it were. 

Seeing genuine and fake side by side is most definitely the way forward in terms of ID'ing fakes in my opinion. 

 

[Rob]

Which would be an excellent way of presentation if such a site were to be made. It will double the number of images, but aid identification. However, you must get them the right way round.

[1949threepence]

On 2/14/2019 at 10:36 PM, ozjohn said:

Nothing wrong with them? They are fakes intended to deceive, underweight and fineness. That will do for start.

It's a phrase we use sarcastically in the UK to kind of ironically underline how appallingly bad something is. For example, we might say, "I took a look at that house today, and apart from the roof falling in, the garden completely overgrown, dry rot and damp everywhere, it's a great place"

[1949threepence]

2 minutes ago, Rob said:

Which would be an excellent way of presentation if such a site were to be made. It will double the number of images, but aid identification. However, you must get them the right way round.

Making absolutely crystal clear which is genuine and which is fake. Such as genuine as the left hand picture and fake as the right hand one, with clearly emboldened "GENUINE" AND "FAKE" below the respective photos.  

[Paddy]

I agree with most of the above - my only concern is that the fakers will use such a site to improve the quality of the fakes until we can't tell the difference anymore!

[Sword]

2 hours ago, Paddy said:

I agree with most of the above - my only concern is that the fakers will use such a site to improve the quality of the fakes until we can't tell the difference anymore!

This is a potential risk. But the fakers have already compared images of real coins with their creations and probably do know where the differences are. Besides, indicators such as poor quality of edge lettering, raised spots, same scratches on cast coins etc are much easier to spot then correct. 

[secret santa]

4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

However, you must get them the right way round.

 

4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Making absolutely crystal clear which is genuine and which is fake. Such as genuine as the left hand picture and fake as the right hand one, with clearly emboldened "GENUINE" AND "FAKE" below the respective photos.  

Thanks for this very useful advice gents. Just off to suck a few eggs..............................