Freeman 14 Penny

[Bernie]

I noticed this Freeman 14 penny that is to be auctioned by Heritage on January 21st.

The coin is slabbed and graded as MS67. I am almost certain that it was my coin, but now appears different, much brighter, some minor blemishes removed and some details such as minor scratches possibly polished away. https://coins.ha.com/itm/great-britain/world-coins/great-britain-victoria-penny-1860-ms67-red-and-brown-ngc-/a/3089-32804.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

I have attached pictures of the coin that I used to have in my collection, What do others think ?

Bernie...

[Bernie]

Freeman 14 reverse

[Paddy]

Not really my area, but I think they are different coins. There is a small scratch between the ribbons on the Heritage coin, that is not on yours. Also a black dot between the E and G of REG - which they could have removed if they cleaned it, and does not appear on yours.

[1949threepence]

Presumably the carbon spot now clearly visible between the E & G of REG wasn't there when you had the coin? 

Conversely the vertical smudge under the D of DG seems to have gone, as do one or two other minor blemishes.  

Just looked at my F14, which has some die cracks, but not all in the same place - and certainly not that rather unique looking line which runs Eastward from the tip of the helmet feathers, which appears on both coins in your example pics. All the die cracks are in the same place. 

Mine does have the one between the F & D, but not identical to the two examples of yours, which are identical. It doesn't have a die crack at all under the O of VICTORIA, whereas again, yours are identical.

Not 100% sure.  

[mrbadexample]

I'm going for different coins. It took a while of fairly hardcore spot-the-difference but I think there's a wee dent on yours I don't see on the Heritage coin, maybe two, but the top one was what swayed me. Remarkably similar though.

[jelida]

I think they are different coins too. There appear to be at least two die pairings for this coin , both my coins are the same dies as your coin, Bernie. And then there is this pairing, a coin sold on EBay a couple of days ago, a pretty terminal set of die cracks on the reverse and some doubling of letters on the obverse.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1860-penny-LCW-below-Britannia-039-s-foot-Ex-Rare-Freeman-14-dies-3-E-Gouby-E-e-/174577295437?hash=item28a59e204d%3Ag%3A3vcAAOSwEwdf7J7T&nma=true&si=4WOcaJoe%2B3BOCGYYmHhm0CXIVrI%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Any more F14 reverse dies known?

Jerry

[rpeddie]

crazy thats a lot of die cracks though, those dies must have been on their last legs surely while striking these 2 pieces 

[secret santa]

Different coins for me, too. I've also compared the Colin Cooke pictures of yours and I think they are different.

[Rob]

Different coins going by the rim marks, particularly the one in line with the trident point and at 12 o'clock obv.

[alfnail]

3 hours ago, jelida said:

I think they are different coins too. There appear to be at least two die pairings for this coin , both my coins are the same dies as your coin, Bernie. And then there is this pairing, a coin sold on EBay a couple of days ago, a pretty terminal set of die cracks on the reverse and some doubling of letters on the obverse.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1860-penny-LCW-below-Britannia-039-s-foot-Ex-Rare-Freeman-14-dies-3-E-Gouby-E-e-/174577295437?hash=item28a59e204d%3Ag%3A3vcAAOSwEwdf7J7T&nma=true&si=4WOcaJoe%2B3BOCGYYmHhm0CXIVrI%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Any more F14 reverse dies known?

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

I think there are at least 3 different reverse dies for the F14, all with different, mutually exclusive, die flaws. Please refer to my 2015 post below. 

More Pennies - Page 29 - British Coin Related Discussions & Enquiries - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

[1949threepence]

50 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Hi Jerry,

I think there are at least 3 different reverse dies for the F14, all with different, mutually exclusive, die flaws. Please refer to my 2015 post below. 

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Yes, that's conclusive Ian. Bernie's coins seem to fit the first of your three 2015 pics, with regard to die crack positioning, and mine fits the third, exactly.

Different coins.  

[Bernie]

How about the horizontal minor scratch about 1mm above and to the right of the rose. I don't think this is an impression from the die.

[Bernie]

19 hours ago, Bernie said:

How about the horizontal minor scratch about 1mm above and to the right of the rose. I don't think this is an impression from the die.

Rechecked, not a scratch but a fine die crack !

I concur, it is a different coin, but surely struck from the same pair of dies, probably struck within 10's of striking. Thank you all for your opinions.

Happy New Year !

Edited January 2, 2021 by Bernie
added my thanks !

[mrbadexample]

I think it's remarkable that coins struck so closely to each other have been preserved in such similar condition. 

[1949threepence]

48 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

I think it's remarkable that coins struck so closely to each other have been preserved in such similar condition. 

It is that.

I thought the same as Bernie, that these must have been struck only 10's apart to retain such identical die flaws. Well, I thought that fleetingly before Bernie said it, but then dismissed it as the odds being overwhelmingly against such a coincidence. But logically, how else do you explain it? The longer the gap between strikes on two separate coins from the same die, the more any die flaws will have changed such that it becomes obvious under magnification. 

Surely? unless I'm missing something blindingly obvious. 

    

[Iannich48]

It makes sense to me.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

It is that.

I thought the same as Bernie, that these must have been struck only 10's apart to retain such identical die flaws. Well, I thought that fleetingly before Bernie said it, but then dismissed it as the odds being overwhelmingly against such a coincidence. But logically, how else do you explain it? The longer the gap between strikes on two separate coins from the same die, the more any die flaws will have changed such that it becomes obvious under magnification. 

Surely? unless I'm missing something blindingly obvious. 

    

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

- Sherlock Holmes -

(The Sign of the Four - Sir Arthur Conan  Doyle)

[Peckris 2]

22 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I thought the same as Bernie, that these must have been struck only 10's apart to retain such identical die flaws. Well, I thought that fleetingly before Bernie said it, but then dismissed it as the odds being overwhelmingly against such a coincidence. But logically, how else do you explain it? The longer the gap between strikes on two separate coins from the same die, the more any die flaws will have changed such that it becomes obvious under magnification.

Or possibly both were saved by the same person from the same source at the time, and have both come on the market in modern times. Even recently sold by the same person which would explain their presence on the market?

[1949threepence]

21 hours ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

- Sherlock Holmes -

(The Sign of the Four - Sir Arthur Conan  Doyle)

 

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Or possibly both were saved by the same person from the same source at the time, and have both come on the market in modern times. Even recently sold by the same person which would explain their presence on the market?

Well yes, but given that the die flaws on mine are also identical (this time to the third of the coins in Ian's 2015 posting), that stretches probability even further. 

Unless it's actually the same coin.

[Bernie]

10 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

 

Well yes, but given that the die flaws on mine are also identical (this time to the third of the coins in Ian's 2015 posting), that stretches probability even further. 

Unless it's actually the same coin.

Yes maybe,

Here is another example of coins that are definitely the same but appear to look different. Pictures can be very deceptive. Freeman 341 (16+P)

[oldcopper]

On 1/1/2021 at 8:55 PM, alfnail said:

Hi Jerry,

I think there are at least 3 different reverse dies for the F14, all with different, mutually exclusive, die flaws. Please refer to my 2015 post below. 

More Pennies - Page 29 - British Coin Related Discussions & Enquiries - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

I've only ever seen the first two dies of F114 you illustrate - the date-flawed one (illustrated in Freeman) and the crack though the N one. Most of the bright ones are from the crack through the N die in my experience. I reckon a group of mint state ones must have been stashed away at some stage.

I haven't ever seen the third variety before - presumably it's very rare?

[alfnail]

....and which of the 3 reverses is this one? 

[terrysoldpennies]

3 hours ago, alfnail said:

....and which of the 3 reverses is this one? 

It looks to me like a forth die, the cracks are clearly nowhere near the same location as on the other three dies .   

[Martinminerva]

1 hour ago, terrysoldpennies said:

looks to me like a forth die, the cracks are clearly nowhere near the same location as on the other three dies .   

And I think this would perhaps qualify as an alternative ONF penny - nearly even PFNNY too!!

Certainly many letters are weak or deficient. A good diagnostic I suspect of this fourth die. Any other specimens out there?

[1949threepence]

6 hours ago, oldcopper said:

I've only ever seen the first two dies of F114 you illustrate - the date-flawed one (illustrated in Freeman) and the crack though the N one. Most of the bright ones are from the crack through the N die in my experience. I reckon a group of mint state ones must have been stashed away at some stage.

I haven't ever seen the third variety before - presumably it's very rare?

I'm certain that the F14 I hold, which I won at the Copthorne auction in June 2016, is exactly the same coin as the third variety shown in Ian's pics. Not only do the die flaws match exactly, but on closer examination every spot and blemish also check out the same.