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[copper123]

17 hours ago, Sword said:

I agree with you. But I think it is fair to say that bronze / copper collectors are more into rare varieties than silver collectors. A rare variety penny grading fine can worth many thousands, but the market is not quite the same for a rare variety silver in my view. 

Very true indeed penny collectors are notorious in finding /discovering new varieties ,with halfpennies and farthings the fans are fewer but there again every so often something new pops up

[Peckris 2]

18 hours ago, Sword said:

I agree with you. But I think it is fair to say that bronze / copper collectors are more into rare varieties than silver collectors. A rare variety penny grading fine can worth many thousands, but the market is not quite the same for a rare variety silver in my view. 

One possible reason for this is that the Mint held base metal coins as a low priority compared to silver, and therefore took many more attempts to get things right, resulting in more varieties. The other reason is that the changeover from copper to bronze was so fraught with difficulties, that the period from 1858 to 1863 alone could be worth a serious research study and produce a whole book with its findings.

[1949threepence]

6 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

One possible reason for this is that the Mint held base metal coins as a low priority compared to silver, and therefore took many more attempts to get things right, resulting in more varieties. The other reason is that the changeover from copper to bronze was so fraught with difficulties, that the period from 1858 to 1863 alone could be worth a serious research study and produce a whole book with its findings.

Yes, I think there has to be a lot of truth in that. i'd also agree that the period 1858 to 1863 is worth a book in itself. 

Incidentally, high time we had a new book on pre 1860 copper, including the top quality pics that are easily available today. Can't quite understand why we've had several on post 1860 bronze, but none the other way. Maybe it's a period which never quite captured the numismatic imagination.  

[Mr T]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:57 AM, 1949threepence said:

Incidentally, high time we had a new book on pre 1860 copper, including the top quality pics that are easily available today. Can't quite understand why we've had several on post 1860 bronze, but none the other way. Maybe it's a period which never quite captured the numismatic imagination.  

I suppose it was before we were all born, so we have no fond memories of it, but was there any copper book similar to Freeman's when decimalisation rolled around? I assumed that bronze varieties were popular because they were cheap (to pull from change at least) but also because there was a readily available reference book that got to the point.

[Peckris 2]

20 hours ago, Mr T said:

I suppose it was before we were all born, so we have no fond memories of it, but was there any copper book similar to Freeman's when decimalisation rolled around? I assumed that bronze varieties were popular because they were cheap (to pull from change at least) but also because there was a readily available reference book that got to the point.

Seaby's published a separate bronze / copper edition of their catalogue in the mid-60s.

Of course, Peck was the ultimate reference at that time.

[Nonmortuus]

I picked this up a few months back without researching it and got lucky!

D&H Warwickshire 36 RRR

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Mislabeled as a  High Tide, it is actually a 1897 Dot.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Reverse

 

[1949threepence]

1858 a/EF small date on offer by good old Coopers Coins for £70 - but what do you reckon? Over a 6, or not?

Either way, not bad value.

***LINK TO COIN***

 

[Iannich48]

9 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

1858 a/EF small date on offer by good old Coopers Coins for £70 - but what do you reckon? Over a 6, or not?

Either way, not bad value.

***LINK TO COIN***

 

I think not. Just a trick of the light in my opinion.

[1949threepence]

19 minutes ago, Iannich48 said:

I think not. Just a trick of the light in my opinion.

Exactly my thoughts. Just wanted to check. 

The date is full of gunge anyway. 

[Rob]

Doesn't look like it. 8/6 is quite obvious.

 

[secret santa]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Either way, not bad value.

I've been watching this and surprised it hasn't been snapped up - scarce-ish coin.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

I've been watching this and surprised it hasn't been snapped up - scarce-ish coin.

and a decent low price as well.

[Rob]

Supply and demand. He has one available and none of you need one. It's a niche product. 10 years ago there was virtually no mention or discussion of wide and narrow dates, and I would suggest that demand is determined by the number of specialists rather than the average collector. If the general references used by the masses don't include these as varieties, then people are not aware.

[alfnail]

4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

1858 a/EF small date on offer by good old Coopers Coins for £70 - but what do you reckon? Over a 6, or not?

Either way, not bad value.

***LINK TO COIN***

 

Definitely not 8/6 Mike. 2nd 8 is over gap on 8/6, but over tooth on the Coopers coin. Also no flaw through C of VICTORIA. Reverse colons also completely different locations. 

[secret santa]

1 hour ago, Rob said:

10 years ago there was virtually no mention or discussion of wide and narrow dates

Wide and narrow dates, Rob ? Tut tut - it's large and small dates we geeks are talking here.

[Rob]

Same applies. Still a recent phenomenon. A fraction of a mm difference in character size or spacing isn't an in your face thing that people who only want an example or two of a type are likely to notice.

Variety collection is almost exclusively driven by literature, not from a desire to do the basic research. Nerds in every field have always been the exception to the masses, but until pen is put to paper, their research is shared only by a few interested people that bounce ideas off each other. They are the only people likely to have a big enough database of examples.

[1949threepence]

2 hours ago, alfnail said:

Definitely not 8/6 Mike. 2nd 8 is over gap on 8/6, but over tooth on the Coopers coin. Also no flaw through C of VICTORIA. Reverse colons also completely different locations. 

Thanks Ian - useful and valuable info as ever. 

[1949threepence]

28 minutes ago, Rob said:

Same applies. Still a recent phenomenon. A fraction of a mm difference in character size or spacing isn't an in your face thing that people who only want an example or two of a type are likely to notice.

Variety collection is almost exclusively driven by literature, not from a desire to do the basic research. Nerds in every field have always been the exception to the masses, but until pen is put to paper, their research is shared only by a few interested people that bounce ideas off each other. They are the only people likely to have a big enough database of examples.

Depends how you define "recent". Peck referred to small date 1858 specimens, over 60 years ago. 

[Rob]

51 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Depends how you define "recent". Peck referred to small date 1858 specimens, over 60 years ago. 

Peck was definitely not mainstream literature for the masses. At the time the second edition was printed, you were looking at around a fiver for a book. The same price as Seaby's were asking for a gFine Elizabeth I milled 3d or an EF Chas.II 2d. Colin Cooke once said to me that many of his customers didn't have reference books, and a good number didn't even have a copy of Spink/Seaby. The reluctance to 'waste' money on useful books is an age old problem.

If you rely on CMV or whatever, coverage of varieties is a bit varied, with some pennies and milled coinage listed, but Civil War coins and hammered coins are not. Charles I Oxford halfcrowns for example are listed as from £350 Fine and £975 VF. That's it, one line to cover all varieties for everything. 100 years ago, Morrieson listed 102 varieties of Oxford halfcrowns in his BNJ article and that number is now larger. The same applies for all hammered coinage. Before I refocused the collection in 2008 I had a list of over 2200 halfpenny varieties documented or observed and over 1500 shillings, but that is hardly mainstream interest level. At that level, any discussion rapidly leads to the eyes glazing over and the shutters coming down.

I suppose these days it is the internet that has become the equal to the written word and made the information available to a wider audience as it is searchable.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Rob

[copper123]

13 hours ago, Rob said:

Peck was definitely not mainstream literature for the masses. At the time the second edition was printed, you were looking at around a fiver for a book. The same price as Seaby's were asking for a gFine Elizabeth I milled 3d or an EF Chas.II 2d. Colin Cooke once said to me that many of his customers didn't have reference books, and a good number didn't even have a copy of Spink/Seaby. The reluctance to 'waste' money on useful books is an age old problem.

If you rely on CMV or whatever, coverage of varieties is a bit varied, with some pennies and milled coinage listed, but Civil War coins and hammered coins are not. Charles I Oxford halfcrowns for example are listed as from £350 Fine and £975 VF. That's it, one line to cover all varieties for everything. 100 years ago, Morrieson listed 102 varieties of Oxford halfcrowns in his BNJ article and that number is now larger. The same applies for all hammered coinage. Before I refocused the collection in 2008 I had a list of over 2200 halfpenny varieties documented or observed and over 1500 shillings, but that is hardly mainstream interest level. At that level, any discussion rapidly leads to the eyes glazing over and the shutters coming down.

I suppose these days it is the internet that has become the equal to the written word and made the information available to a wider audience as it is searchable.

Coins market values always valued the d over sideways d 1851 farthing  at about seven or eight time the normal coin - you try finding one in any grade its very difficult- well its still not in my collection after donkeys years anyway

Edited November 21, 2022 by copper123

[copper123]

Talking of varieties does anyone know when the first 1862  6/8 was found I suspect its as recent as the late 1990's I am pretty sure there are about 25 or 30 at least known

One for the penny geeks this one should not be hard as there are plenty out there

[1949threepence]

19 hours ago, Rob said:

Peck was definitely not mainstream literature for the masses. At the time the second edition was printed, you were looking at around a fiver for a book. The same price as Seaby's were asking for a gFine Elizabeth I milled 3d or an EF Chas.II 2d. Colin Cooke once said to me that many of his customers didn't have reference books, and a good number didn't even have a copy of Spink/Seaby. The reluctance to 'waste' money on useful books is an age old problem.

If you rely on CMV or whatever, coverage of varieties is a bit varied, with some pennies and milled coinage listed, but Civil War coins and hammered coins are not. Charles I Oxford halfcrowns for example are listed as from £350 Fine and £975 VF. That's it, one line to cover all varieties for everything. 100 years ago, Morrieson listed 102 varieties of Oxford halfcrowns in his BNJ article and that number is now larger. The same applies for all hammered coinage. Before I refocused the collection in 2008 I had a list of over 2200 halfpenny varieties documented or observed and over 1500 shillings, but that is hardly mainstream interest level. At that level, any discussion rapidly leads to the eyes glazing over and the shutters coming down.

I suppose these days it is the internet that has become the equal to the written word and made the information available to a wider audience as it is searchable.

Well no, but then collecting 1858 large and small date pennies, was never for the masses - and you did say "recent phenomenon".

Word would soon have got round the numismatic community, even in pre internet days. So I reckon it's far more probable than not that a specialist pre 1860 penny collector, back in those days, would have been made aware of the two varieties quite quickly 

  

[DrLarry]

2 hours ago, copper123 said:

Talking of varieties does anyone know when the first 1862  6/8 was found I suspect its as recent as the late 1990's I am pretty sure there are about 25 or 30 at least known

One for the penny geeks this one should not be hard as there are plenty out there

Oh!!! what's a "PENNYGEEK"  isn't it a bulbous vegetable part of the Family Fabaceae