1852 Florin Query

[Paulus]

Can anyone spot anything 'wrong' with this florin? I bought it from @Rob over 4 years ago, and it remains my nicest example of a gothic florin.

At the time I was prone to sending some of my nicer coins to CGS (as was) for grading, attribution, etc. I'm not after another debate about the rights and wrongs of slabbing, or the goods and bads of CGS.

It was rejected as 'altered' (no further explanation was forthcoming), but I'm damned if I can find anything awry with it!

[copper123]

Looks a yummy coin to me and i would love to own it .

Only thing wrong is they are very rare in that date/grade 1886 might be a bit easyer.

Tarnishing looks about right for a coin of that age .

[Diaconis]

Doesn't seem anything altered at all to me and if I were looking to play devils advocate and just question something for the sake of it, perhaps they see tooling here?. I can't really spot anything to question. Rather remiss of these companies not to give details and leave the owner in limbo.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Diaconis

[copper123]

14 minutes ago, Diaconis said:

Doesn't seem anything altered at all to me and if I were looking to play devils advocate and just question something for the sake of it, perhaps they see tooling here?. I can't really spot anything to question. Rather remiss of these companies not to give details and leave the owner in limbo.

 

I am surprised they don't charge £50 to invent something wrong with it , thats the way these companies work

[Iannich48]

Looks like a very nice florin to me. No reason to reject it that i can see. 

[Paulus]

Thanks for the opinions so far chaps, much appreciated!

I did think they could have meant some kind of tooling, but I can't spot any (not an expert in that anyway), and I'm not sure what the point would be? It's a solid GEF to my eyes and I don't believe there's a scarce variety someone is trying to mimic?

 

[DaveG38]

23 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Thanks for the opinions so far chaps, much appreciated!

I did think they could have meant some kind of tooling, but I can't spot any (not an expert in that anyway), and I'm not sure what the point would be? It's a solid GEF to my eyes and I don't believe there's a scarce variety someone is trying to mimic?

 

Have you considered that no TPG is infallible, and that they may simply have it wrong?

[Paulus]

Just now, DaveG38 said:

Have you considered that no TPG is infallible, and that they may simply have it wrong?

Certainly, in fact I have decided that is the case! But I decided eventually to share, it will be the first that Rob has heard of it too!

[copper123]

Who would tool a coin in that grade anyway ? Takes a lot of imagination..........

[Diaconis]

9 hours ago, copper123 said:

I am surprised they don't charge £50 to invent something wrong with it , thats the way these companies work

Does one have to pay if the coin is rejected then? I really dont follow slabbing companies so please excuse my ingorance here.

[1949threepence]

Have you thought about sending it to NGC instead?

Just giving you the word "altered" isn't very helpful on their part.

 

[jelida]

It does look a nice coin, but also playing Devil’s Advocate, could there be some lines parallel to the diagonal mark on Victoria’s neck? So difficult to tell from a photo,  but could the edges of a minor gouge have been smoothed?

That’s a problem with TPG’s, a coin that is rejected , even if the reason is not obvious, becomes more difficult to live with unless re-assessed. I do prefer Rob’s ‘acceptable’ or ‘not acceptable’ rather than strict grade in determining whether a coin deserves a place in my collection as I can accommodate parameters such as rarity, availability, desire to acquire, gap to fill, need to upgrade, prettiness, potential profit etc in an immediate decision whether to acquire;  not infallible of course, and purchases made on the net after returning from the pub tend to demonstrate this.

Jerry

[VickySilver]

Jerry, those are some eagle eyes of yours. I was at first prepared to accept it as gradeable but those do appear to be inches and old with some toning over them so that may be the case. Need to see this "in-hand". I also agree with the 2nd photo of the beading and the margin designs on the dress looking a bit off.

[copper123]

14 hours ago, Diaconis said:

Does one have to pay if the coin is rejected then? I really dont follow slabbing companies so please excuse my ingorance here.

Not sure at all,  the way most decent companies work is by charging you for work after they have done it to a certain standard that the buyer is happy with.

If this happens in the slabbing world well and good , somehow I suspect it does not ......

Edited July 15, 2021 by copper123

[Sword]

2 minutes ago, copper123 said:

Not sure at all,  the way most decent companies work is by charging you for work after they have done it to a certain standard that the buyer is happy with.

If this happens in the slabbing world well and good , somehow I suspect it does not ......

You get charged the full fee regardless. The argument is that the company has to do the same amount of work regardless.

[copper123]

A resturant could argue the same while serving a sustandard meal

A builder could do shoddy work and charge you full wack

A shop could leave you waiting for your goods for six months and not even say sorry

A company could deliver to the wrong address and still charge you for it

An insurance company could leave you waiting  years on a household claim

A slabbing company could do the decent thing and at least tell the client why they will not slab his coin- it costs them nothing and he already has paid the slabbing fee

Edited July 15, 2021 by copper123

[Sword]

I totally agree that a slabbing company should tell you why they didn't slab a coin. That should be part of the service and it's just good manners. 

However, I think it is right that they charge their fee even if a coin is rejected. You paid for their opinion and not for a favourable outcome. 

If someone do an operation in a private hospital, they have to pay the fee regardless.

[1949threepence]

44 minutes ago, Sword said:

I totally agree that a slabbing company should tell you why they didn't slab a coin. That should be part of the service and it's just good manners. 

However, I think it is right that they charge their fee even if a coin is rejected. You paid for their opinion and not for a favourable outcome. 

If someone do an operation in a private hospital, they have to pay the fee regardless.

They should certainly give you more than one word. 

I've never had a coin slabbed, but the attitude is strongly indicative of full payment in advance, as they'd surely be told to do one if they sent you an invoice with a one word rejection. 

[Peckris 2]

1 hour ago, Sword said:

I totally agree that a slabbing company should tell you why they didn't slab a coin. That should be part of the service and it's just good manners. 

However, I think it is right that they charge their fee even if a coin is rejected. You paid for their opinion and not for a favourable outcome. 

If someone do an operation in a private hospital, they have to pay the fee regardless.

PART of the fee, certainly. However, they don't have the expense of actually slabbing the coin which would include producing the necessary inserts. I'd say that half the fee might be more fair.

[Sword]

"Rejected" coins still get encapsulated (with a yellow label instead of white). In addition, a grade (UNC details, AU details, EF details etc) is also given but without a number. 

[ozjohn]

Poor grading by TPGs is not unknown as witnessed by the many examples I have posted on these forums. To the coin in question. I noticed the marks on the queen’s neck and they are definitely old as they are toned into the mark which is probably damage sustained during the minting process or circulation.There does not seem to be any evidence of deliberate alteration of this coin and TPG’ers should take account of this during their appraisal process. Better that the mark be noted on the slab.

Edited July 15, 2021 by ozjohn
Typo

[VickySilver]

But what is your opinion on the beading and the designs at the edge of the gown?

My issue with the neck is that there appear to be some deeper "gouges" that then appear to have the parallel lines of ?abrasion OVER the surface of them.

Rob is my man, but this is a coin that I would have to hold on. Will check my own 1852s....

[copper123]

Would anyone agree? Payment should be after coin is slabbed and when you are happy - that would be best for both the coin owner and the service provider.

It should only take one slabbing company to do this and they would just hoover up the customers

[copper123]

15 hours ago, Sword said:

"Rejected" coins still get encapsulated (with a yellow label instead of white). In addition, a grade (UNC details, AU details, EF details etc) is also given but without a number. 

this sounds much more customer friendly

[Paulus]

This was slabbed with a yellow label stating 'Altered UNC'

You could ask LCGS not to slab rejected coins.

LCGS has now stopped their slabbing/grading service and the database appears to be unavailable.