The Proclamation Coins

[copper123]

39 minutes ago, Peckris said:

The EU on the other hand is not a nation, it's a confederation of nations each with their own genetic melting pot, that was formed to prevent obscenities like WW2 from ever happening again, at least in Europe. To that extent it has succeeded, even more than Winston Churchill - its great

The Eu was winston churchills baby wasn't it he always wanted a united states of europe to avoid another world war.

The french however made sure that we never joined till after churchill was dead , so he never really saw his baby born

[Peckris]

26 minutes ago, copper123 said:

The Eu was winston churchills baby wasn't it he always wanted a united states of europe to avoid another world war.

The french however made sure that we never joined till after churchill was dead , so he never really saw his baby born

I guess I'll take Madness's hint and take this to the Dog Pit from now on. 

However, as it relates to your post - yes, that's exactly how it was. De Gaulle applied the veto to all our efforts to join, and it was his death or retirement - rather than Churchill's - that was the removal of the stumbling block.

[Paddy]

Any chance one of the moderators could move all the political ranting in here to the Dog Pit so that we can get on with the very interesting topic of the Proclamation coins?

 

[Paddy]

... and to get back on topic I found this site which has some good pictures of most of the proclamation coins (and a few others):

http://www.triton.vg/proclamation.html

 

[jelida]

28 minutes ago, Paddy said:

... and to get back on topic I found this site which has some good pictures of most of the proclamation coins (and a few others):

http://www.triton.vg/proclamation.html

 

This is rather a nice way to collect as a series a great variety of rather pretty coins. I suppose you could do something similar with earlier English coins in that a number of continental coins did circulate freely at various times alongside our currency, I have metal detected examples from the low countries, Spain, France and of course Venetian Galley halfpennies, as well as Irish and Scottish. However I don't know of a comprehensive list, or equivalent values unless they circulated purely on the basis of fineness and weight.

Jerry

[Paddy]

Another interesting way of building a collection of "foreign" coins has been taken up by one of my regular buyers at market: He wants one decent coin from every country or territory that is or has been under British control at some stage. It is a surprisingly long list - I saw a map online somewhere suggesting that there are only 22 countries in the world that have not been occupied at some time in whole or part by the Brits!

He came with a list - and I promptly added a whole load more - Ionian Islands, Demerara & Essequibo, Straits Settlements etc. There are other surprises: Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan and the United Arab Emirates are all ones I would not have thought of.

[Rob]

Themed collections are an aesthetically pleasing move away from the serried ranks of sameness associated with denomination collecting. Although a themed collection still confers boundaries, the almost inevitably eclectic result obtained on completion will provide interest for many collecting areas. Multiple areas of interest is a diversity that many collectors could benefit from.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Paddy said:

... and to get back on topic I found this site which has some good pictures of most of the proclamation coins (and a few others):

http://www.triton.vg/proclamation.html

 

Well, thanks for this Paddy and for the thread, Madness. This was a subject about which I knew nothing. Wouldn't have even known what proclamation coins were.

Certainly would never have guessed that coins from various lands were all used in Australia post 1800, and that each were allotted a different value. 

Perfect for collecting.

  

[bagerap]

22 hours ago, Madness said:

We of convict stock have many Neanderthal genetic markers.  To dispel another myth, not all of us are called Bruce.  Many are known affectionately as "Dickhead" or "Wanker".

There is the oft repeated anecdote from the Bodyline series:

Douglas Jardine had appeared at the door of the Australian dressing room, objecting that he had heard himself described as a "bastard" on the field. Vic Richardson, the vice-captain, turned to his team. "All right, which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?"

[copper123]

8 hours ago, Paddy said:

Another interesting way of building a collection of "foreign" coins has been taken up by one of my regular buyers at market: He wants one decent coin from every country or territory that is or has been under British control at some stage. It is a surprisingly long list - I saw a map online somewhere suggesting that there are only 22 countries in the world that have not been occupied at some time in whole or part by the Brits!

He came with a list - and I promptly added a whole load more - Ionian Islands, Demerara & Essequibo, Straits Settlements etc. There are other surprises: Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan and the United Arab Emirates are all ones I would not have thought of.

My father told me about the israel conflict against the uk troops , apparently there were many sneaky terorist plots and bombings, they had enough in the end and just pulled out - who would have thought that from the most anti -terrorist country on this earth , being created from terrorism

[Mr T]

9 hours ago, Paddy said:

... and to get back on topic I found this site which has some good pictures of most of the proclamation coins (and a few others):

http://www.triton.vg/proclamation.html

 

That's a great site (though the maintainer unfortunately died of cancer in the last year or two I think).

[Madness]

The helpful table linked by @Paddy raises an important question: What constitutes a proclamation coin? 

As I see it, the term has been used in at least four ways:

1. To refer to not only the coins in Governor King's 1800 proclamation, but also those that derive their face value from them: A halfpenny, half-guinea etc.  Without the shadow of a doubt these would have been in circulation at the time.  For better or worse, though, King includes a half-Johanna, which itself is a derived value.  This suggests that sixpences etc were not "officially" accepted tender, but may have lead to some confusion on the matter in colonial practice. 

2. To refer to early Australian colonial currency constitutes. This is unquestionably a misnomer. That would be like saying that every animal on the farm is a cow.  There is a substantial body of anecdotal evidence that other specie, particularly bullion, were widely circulated and accepted.  This doesn't mean that they were official currency, or even legal currency.

3. To refer to coins that constituted the official currency of the antipodean colonies only.   There were were twelve similar decrees between 1788 and 1825.  I see no reason why this is not a valid descriptor.  

4. To refer to the 1800 Proclamation by King alone.  This is a very narrow meaning and possibly needs further clarification when used.  

My nascent collection (at this stage consisting of the guinea alone) is limited by the fourth definition at this stage, for reasons that I shall elaborate upon in a future post.  

For further reading, take a look at this article *here*.  On this page they're plugging a book that I recently purchased, "The Coinage of Colonial Australia" by Andrew Crellin.  I'll post a book review some time in the next couple of weeks.

[Madness]

I'm two weeks and two days into this hobby.  Why did I choose to begin with Proclamation coins?

1. I bought a guinea without any background research simply because of a certain uninformed mystique behind it 

2. I discovered that it was part of Governor King's 1800 proclamation

3. Being a fan of Patrick O'Brian novels and having read a little about colonial history, the period intrigued me

4. As an introduction to collecting, it provides me with the opportunity to consider coins of various nations, denominations, materials and production methods

Realistically, I'll only be collecting coins with an exchange rate equal to and less than that given by King to the Guinea.  The price of acquiring a johanna, half-johanna and gold mohur would just take too long to save.  As previously mentioned, I'll also be restricting my collection to those actually on King's list.  

What's next?  Perhaps a single groat of each monarch from Victoria back.  Time will tell.  There's one thing I can tell you, though: I'll be researching things thoroughly first!  My guinea fiasco serves as a cautionary tale.  

Edited August 1, 2018 by Madness

[ozjohn]

The attachment may be of interest to anyone trying to find out about Proclamation Coins. As it is large I will send over a number of posts

[ozjohn]

Number 2

[ozjohn]

Number 3

Edited August 1, 2018 by ozjohn

[ozjohn]

Number 4

[ozjohn]

Number 5

[Madness]

A Brief Book Review 

Andrew Crellin. The Coinage of Colonial Australia: Governor King's Proclamation of 1800. Sydney: Monetarium, 2004

There's no question that this book is immediately pleasing to the eye and to the hand: Generously illustrated with images representing the times, places, people and coins discussed within its hard-cover binding.  The introduction of ten pages serves to provide some context, including a socio-economic overview of the penal colony.  A chapter is then dedicated to each of the eleven coins, which are described, their usage discussed and some tips provided for the novice collector. 

This is not a work of great depth or scholarship, nor was it intended to be as the primary audience is obviously not the serious numismatist.  Rather, it is a welcome diversion that can be comfortably read in a couple of evenings.  

What qualifies me to make these comments?  Well, frankly nothing.  This is the first book I've read with a numismatic focus.  That said, over the course of the past couple of weeks I've read a number of articles from the British Numismatic Journal on related topics which serve as a point of reference.  These have been far more interesting and useful.  Perhaps I'll summarise their contents in upcoming posts.  

The Coinage of Colonial Australia can be purchased here for $50 AUD.  I bought my new copy recently from an eBay seller for $10, but they have no more copies left.  This is unsurprising given that only 750 were printed.   

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Madness

[Mr T]

Need to get myself a copy.

Have you read Coins, Coinages and Currencies of Australasia by Coleman P Hyman?

[Madness]

In my reading I've started tracking the ant trail back to the nest.  What were the causes of the currency crisis that required King's 1800 proclamation?  It's all too easy to say that, as a dumping ground for criminals at the faeces-feeding end of the earth, the coinage deficiency came about by the neglect of British officials and politicians.  Yes, there's truth in this, but it's necessary to consider the turmoil both within and outside of the empire.  

This article by GP Dyer from the British Numismatic Journal of 2002 is helpful:  The Currency Crisis of 1797.  Here's my TLDR summary, but the article is worth reading in full.

1. In February 1797 a gold shortage led to the Bank of England suspending cash payments.  Prior to this there was the assurance that whenever you handed your paper money into the bank you would be able to get the equivalent value in coinage. 

2. The prime minister, William Pitt, responded with on-the-fly decisions intended to perpetuate normal commerce and trade, maintain faith in paper currency and ensure the operating of the banking system.  

3. In the absence of gold, it was necessary that some form of currency take the place of guineas and half guineas.  Within a week legislation had been passed allowing banks to issue notes under five pounds in value and within a few days one and two pound notes were circulating.  

4. A greater supply of silver specie would support the lack of gold.  In order to overcome the shortage of trusted silver coinage, a high volume of Spanish 8-reale dollars were counter-marked with a stamp of the king's bust.  The un-marked coins had been circulating previously in lower volumes due to a long-standing shortage of shillings and other silver coins, but the mark gave them a fixed value of 4s9d.   This response was similarly swift, implemented by early March 1797. 

5. In the same way as a greater volume of silver coinage would support the gold shortage, so a greater volume of copper coins would support the silver.  Late March saw the recommendation minting of pence and twopence pieces with a face value equal to the sum of the copper-value and cost of production.  The implementation of this was planned more carefully with Boulton's Soho mint contracted to the task later that year.  

6. The crisis had been on the horizon for a considerable time and forced the government to confront issues that had long been swept under the carpet.  

This provides us with the context for the inclusion of two of the Proclamation Coins: The "copper coin of 1 oz" ("cartwheel" penny) and the spanish dollar.  It also reminds us that, while the colony of New South Wales may have been of little importance, Britain was facing her own problems and prioritising economic health at home.  

[Peckris 2]

Yes indeed - most of the reign of GEorge III (until 1797 and 1816) had seen a crisis in the money supply. The last proper silver issue (excluding very limited Northumberland shillings) was 1758, and coppers after 1754 only struck between 1770 and 1775, supplemented by a huge and varied production of trade tokens. The variation in size and weight of regnal copper coins from 1797 to 1807 (they had to have their intrinsic value of metal) shows how the price of copper was fluctuating, and I'm sure that applied to silver too (see the early 19th C official tokens). It was only the abandonment of the need for coins to have their intrinsic metal value - i.e. "a token coinage" - that allowed the much needed Great Recoinage of 1816 to proceed, and it's telling that the size and weight of gold and silver coins thereafter was a constant from 1816 to 1971.

[ozjohn]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:39 AM, Madness said:

A Brief Book Review 

Andrew Crellin. The Coinage of Colonial Australia: Governor King's Proclamation of 1800. Sydney: Monetarium, 2004

There's no question that this book is immediately pleasing to the eye and to the hand: Generously illustrated with images representing the times, places, people and coins discussed within its hard-cover binding.  The introduction of ten pages serves to provide some context, including a socio-economic overview of the penal colony.  A chapter is then dedicated to each of the eleven coins, which are described, their usage discussed and some tips provided for the novice collector. 

This is not a work of great depth or scholarship, nor was it intended to be as the primary audience is obviously not the serious numismatist.  Rather, it is a welcome diversion that can be comfortably read in a couple of evenings.  

What qualifies me to make these comments?  Well, frankly nothing.  This is the first book I've read with a numismatic focus.  That said, over the course of the past couple of weeks I've read a number of articles from the British Numismatic Journal on related topics which serve as a point of reference.  These have been far more interesting and useful.  Perhaps I'll summarise their contents in upcoming posts.  

The Coinage of Colonial Australia can be purchased here for $50 AUD.  I bought my new copy recently from an eBay seller for $10, but they have no more copies left.  This is unsurprising given that only 750 were printed.   

 

I have met Andrew who is very knowledgeable about Australian and English coins. He works in a coin shop called Sterling & Currency of Fremantle, WA. A business I can recommend  https://www.sterlingcurrency.com.au/proclamation-and-colonial-coins

Edited August 7, 2018 by ozjohn
typo