1902 Low Tide Penny anomaly?

[Gary1000]

Yes nice coin, now all you need to find now is the wide 2 variety

Whaaaat... Do you have a comparison pic? I've not heard of the wide 2 1902 before

Ok to save someone stating the odvious, yes the picture is of the 1/2 penny but it shows the difference between the normal and wide 2 penny. The 2 is over a space on the wide 2. I'm at work and only have this picture on file.

[Nordle11]

It looks like the 0 in 1902 has also moved slightly to the right along with the 2.

[secret santa]

Got one, I think, my other is curved. But its not a difference I would go hunting for.

Not like having extra teeth!

Jerry

It's a smokescreen to lure people away from looking for that new obverse D !!!!!!

[Mr T]

The E of ONE tends to be the same as the E in PENNY so I think it may be a different die but who knows ? (And before you say it, Rob, who cares !)

The curved/flat based letters occurs on Victorian silver too, as well as Australian pennies. I think it's got to do with metal flow, possibly during working die production.

Got one, I think, my other is curved. But its not a difference I would go hunting for.

Not like having extra teeth!

Jerry

It's a smokescreen to lure people away from looking for that new obverse D !!!!!!

There's a new obverse?

[secret santa]

The E of ONE tends to be the same as the E in PENNY so I think it may be a different die but who knows ? (And before you say it, Rob, who cares !)

The curved/flat based letters occurs on Victorian silver too, as well as Australian pennies. I think it's got to do with metal flow, possibly during working die production.

Got one, I think, my other is curved. But its not a difference I would go hunting for.

Not like having extra teeth!

Jerry

It's a smokescreen to lure people away from looking for that new obverse D !!!!!!

There's a new obverse?

Not a new Edward obverse - I was referring to the new Victoria D obverse.

[terrysoldpennies]

I heard of this variation on the bottom of the E's some years ago, and made a check on my spare 900 or so pennies of this period. I found that wavy and straight bottom E's can be found in all years from 1897 to 1905, with the exception of 1898, these all being of the wavy type, though it my be that I just did not find one. Also on the 1897 wavy, the bottoms of the stems of the P Y and the N's have a dimple. The two Rare types 1897 high tide, and the 1903 open 3 both have straight bottoms.

Terry

[secret santa]

I have 1903 open 3's with wavy bottoms (!)

[terrysoldpennies]

I have two 03 open 3s , one is straight, the other, possibly just slightly off straight. Seems they can vary slightly

Terry

[bhx7]

I know it has been said before but its times like this you realise how much knowledge and passion there is on this forum for coin collecting.

Also very envious re the 1903 open 3's guys. I am struggling to find even one passable example.

Thanks for the knowledge. I am now digging back through all my 1895-1905 pennies!!!!!!

cheers

Brian

[copper123]

I had a 1902 penny with extra teeth and it bit me on the bum , doh

[Nordle11]

Stop late night drinking copper

[Garrett]

Stop late night drinking copper

Okay I give up. Why ?

[Nordle11]

Because his pennies are biting him on the bum

[alfnail]

Not sure how much of the 1902LT wide date stuff was said in jest but here are comparative pictures of type with bar and slightly wider normal date for reference, also a 'close up' of bar in top of zero, which is sort of straight!

Inclined to agree with Rob about varieties, "design and errors", both human introduced rather than machine, e.g. not keen on cannon balls, crow feet, clashed dies being classified as varieties, but they do seem to have found their way into all recognised documentation to date (and CGS), so now have their place. With Victorian Pennies (my main collection) I always find that repairs are the more difficult ones to decide whether to collect because I think probably every letter in the legend has been repaired on one die or another, some much more obvious than others, so where does one draw the line, and what should be termed a variety? Clearly everyone wants an 1860N/Z, but a repaired E in DEF is far less desirable, but still nice to have if it's a real botch job. Then there are date variations and colon dot positions which again vary in location from one die to another, human introduced so perhaps fairly classed as varieties by some authors. For exampIe, I recently looked in detail at my 1851 pennies, no over-dates on that year but we still see different numeral sizes on the 1,5 and 8, and when additionally taking date widths into consideration I found in total I have 12 different date variations.............and that's not a particularly common mintage year.

Think this is a subject which collectors will never agree upon, as always looking for something different to collect, and dealers / auctioneers will always market a new 'feature' to aid their sale.....and then a feature sometimes turns into a new variety! Could go on forever but will stop now, expect this will open a can of worms!

[bhx7]

Fantastic analogy and well thought out. I like all aspects of coin collecting and variants particularly. The point at which the line is drawn will always be different for different collectors. For me a die repair can be a real joy to find as it gives a history and story to the overall coinage process. My initial post has been brilliantly shown with your photos and to me is a variant, but I can understand other peoples reluctance. I am finding this whole discussion really interesting especially seeing so many different peoples views. Shows once again the diversity that is coin collecting.

[alfnail]

Thanks Brian, here are the 1851 penny different numeral types I mentioned earlier, in case anyone is interested

[Rob]

Inclined to agree with Rob about varieties, "design and errors", both human introduced rather than machine, e.g. not keen on cannon balls, crow feet, clashed dies being classified as varieties, but they do seem to have found their way into all recognised documentation to date (and CGS), so now have their place. With Victorian Pennies (my main collection) I always find that repairs are the more difficult ones to decide whether to collect because I think probably every letter in the legend has been repaired on one die or another, some much more obvious than others, so where does one draw the line, and what should be termed a variety? Clearly everyone wants an 1860N/Z, but a repaired E in DEF is far less desirable, but still nice to have if it's a real botch job. Then there are date variations and colon dot positions which again vary in location from one die to another, human introduced so perhaps fairly classed as varieties by some authors. For exampIe, I recently looked in detail at my 1851 pennies, no over-dates on that year but we still see different numeral sizes on the 1,5 and 8, and when additionally taking date widths into consideration I found in total I have 12 different date variations.............and that's not a particularly common mintage year.

Think this is a subject which collectors will never agree upon, as always looking for something different to collect, and dealers / auctioneers will always market a new 'feature' to aid their sale.....and then a feature sometimes turns into a new variety! Could go on forever but will stop now, expect this will open a can of worms!

I think we will all have to agree to differ on this one.

I can't agree re the Cannonball if you are referring to the W/SA halfcrown though as this appears to have had the SA removed because the die moved away from Shrewsbury(?) to a new location. The varieties I have the real problems with are those arising from general wear and tear or those where the same nominal design is employed, but due to individually punched features show slight positional differences or have used several punches. Errors, corrected errors and discrete design differences are acceptable to me. Blocked stops are not.

[PWA 1967]

Ian will be talking about the 1875 penny i think Rob not a halfcrown.

[alfnail]

Thanks Pete, yes I was thinking of the 1875 penny; always thinking about pennies!

These foreign bodies which get trapped in the die also appear on several other Victorian pennies, the Copper 1854 dot below first I of VICTORIA, the 1859 DEF extra dot and the 1846 (more pennies discussion) are examples, then of course there is the 1897 DOT as another Bronze example...........these are not the result of human introduced design, or deliberate / mistaken repair..............unless one expects that a person should have checked that a piece of grit / metal filing should not have been there......... and that constitutes an error? But I don't expect for a minute that my views will stop penny enthusiasts from wanting an 1897 DOT Penny!!

[Rob]

Sorry, cannonball pennies get under my radar. I would like an 1897 dot penny though to sell on if I can make a bit on it.

[davidrj]

My 1875 cannon ball with the grit affecting the obverse die too, as predicted by Gouby in his footnote to BP1875 Ce, I suspect his BP1875 Cd is an error

[secret santa]

My 1875 cannon ball with the grit affecting the obverse die too, as predicted by Gouby in his footnote to BP1875 Ce, I suspect his BP1875 Cd is an error

That's interesting. Gouby's "cannonball" penny is a wide date 1875 with the dot in a slightly different position in my opinion- see thumbnail. However his dot by the I of VICTORIA penny which is just like yours is also a wide date penny

[davidrj]

That's interesting. Gouby's "cannonball" penny is a wide date 1875 with the dot in a slightly different position in my opinion- see thumbnail. However his dot by the I of VICTORIA penny which is just like yours is also a wide date penny

Exactly! His BP1875 Cd was from memory from a coin he saw back in 2000, I wonder if he got the die pairing wrong???

I would classify my coin as BP 1875 B L+ja. It's odd the rev has the trace of the cannon ball and a very obvious die crack, which would go along with the theory it was caused by a piece of grit.

But a piece of grit affecting two different die pairings in exactly the same place???? beggars belief

[Nordle11]

Sorry, cannonball pennies get under my radar. I would like an 1897 dot penny though to sell on if I can make a bit on it.

I don't think it'll return much for you, I got mine from eBay a year or 2 a go for £50, there's also one floating around on eBay starting at £70 or so and it just gets relisted over and over. While it's a nice error I don't think you'll get a lot back unless you pick one up for under £20.