Cleaning Coins...really that bad...?

[Colin88]

I've noticed that a few members on this site appear to get apopleptic about coins having been cleaned and seem to think that its the greatest crime in Christendom since Gordon Brown sold our gold reserves at a rock bottom price.

Why is this?

Its certainly not a criminal offence and we all have a choice to buy it or not buy it...no-one forces anyone to buy coins, cleaned or otherwise.

Whilst personally I generally wouldnt buy a cleaned coin, if it was rare enough and/or if the price was right then I would.

[Gary1000]

I've noticed that a few members on this site appear to get apopleptic about coins having been cleaned and seem to think that its the greatest crime in Christendom since Gordon Brown sold our gold reserves at a rock bottom price.

Why is this?

Its certainly not a criminal offence and we all have a choice to buy it or not buy it...no-one forces anyone to buy coins, cleaned or otherwise.

Whilst personally I generally wouldnt buy a cleaned coin, if it was rare enough and/or if the price was right then I would.

I would like to make the distinction between dipped and polished. Dipped high grade silver I have no problem with, bronze I'm not so sure about. I do get the idea though many collector saw a 1933 penny on the ground sticking out of a dog turd half would not pick it up and the other half certainly wouldn't wash it.

[Colin88]

Hi Gary,

Understood but personal preferences on whether its cleaned/dipped/silvered or with a false beard stuck on it, is not what I was refering to.

The point I'm trying to make is not about the rights or wrongs of doing whatever you want to do with a coin but that whatever condition a coin is in when its being sold is entirely up to you whether you chose to buy it or not....it doesnt matter whether you're a dealer or a collector.....it is what it is in the eyes of the buyer and no-one is forcing anyone to buy it.

[Peckris]

Hi Gary,

Understood but personal preferences on whether its cleaned/dipped/silvered or with a false beard stuck on it, is not what I was refering to.

The point I'm trying to make is not about the rights or wrongs of doing whatever you want to do with a coin but that whatever condition a coin is in when its being sold is entirely up to you whether you chose to buy it or not....it doesnt matter whether you're a dealer or a collector.....it is what it is in the eyes of the buyer and no-one is forcing anyone to buy it.

Yeah, but if inexperienced buyers are being conned into believing that cleaning coins is ok, because the devious seller thinks it makes the coin more attractive to such buyers, then that's hardly a good thing, is it? Newbies don't know enough to make a considered judgement about it, and it will be their loss when later told that their coin is not as desirable or valuable as they'd thought.

[Accumulator]

Hi Gary,

Understood but personal preferences on whether its cleaned/dipped/silvered or with a false beard stuck on it, is not what I was refering to.

The point I'm trying to make is not about the rights or wrongs of doing whatever you want to do with a coin but that whatever condition a coin is in when its being sold is entirely up to you whether you chose to buy it or not....it doesnt matter whether you're a dealer or a collector.....it is what it is in the eyes of the buyer and no-one is forcing anyone to buy it.

That's only true until you regard a (rare) coin as being part of our collective heritage. That coin will exist long after you have gone and, in a sense, you are only looking after it for a short time. Should you have the 'right' to deface it? Imagine the owner of a great painting doing the same and the understandable outcry that would ensue!

Edit: just realised you weren't quite saying this, but the point was worth making I feel.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Accumulator

[Nick]

Hi Gary,

Understood but personal preferences on whether its cleaned/dipped/silvered or with a false beard stuck on it, is not what I was refering to.

The point I'm trying to make is not about the rights or wrongs of doing whatever you want to do with a coin but that whatever condition a coin is in when its being sold is entirely up to you whether you chose to buy it or not....it doesnt matter whether you're a dealer or a collector.....it is what it is in the eyes of the buyer and no-one is forcing anyone to buy it.

Sounds like you think that the gullible deserve to be parted from their money.

[Colin88]

If its all about newbies and the fact that we dont actually own coins....then these newbies should never buy a house nor anyone be permitted to decorate or make changes to a house incase the next owners dont like it or it detracts from the value.

Cleaning coins is the equivalent of stone cladding then?

Buying coins or buying any collectable comes down to, not unreasonably, do some basic research first but ultimately, "caveat emptor".

(I'm just off to scrub clean my Una & The Lion set).......cheers.

[1949threepence]

I've been suckered into buying two cleaned coins and I'm determined never to buy one again.

To me a cleaned coin looks awful, and I don't regard them as worthy of collection status (unless extremely rare).

I would rinse the dog muck of a 1933 penny sticking out of a dog turd though. I think you could get away with that without leaving too much trace !!!

[Nick]

If its all about newbies and the fact that we dont actually own coins....then these newbies should never buy a house nor anyone be permitted to decorate or make changes to a house incase the next owners dont like it or it detracts from the value.

Cleaning coins is the equivalent of stone cladding then?

Buying coins or buying any collectable comes down to, not unreasonably, do some basic research first but ultimately, "caveat emptor".

(I'm just off to scrub clean my Una & The Lion set).......cheers.

My point is that none of us start off as as expert, and anybody that claims that they've never bought something that they later regret is probably lying.

Personally, you can polish your 1839 proof set as much as you like - just don't claim that it's FDC when you decide to sell it.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Nick

[Peter]

There is cleaning and cleaning.Soaking Roman grots and using tooth picks to improve is fine with me as well as removing grunge on silver..carefully.Polished milled I can't live with.I've been experimenting with acetone and goddards silver dip.With isolated area's I've have had good results.

Ebay has full coin dippers who I have sold to.

[Gary]

Cleaning, what does that mean? What do we mean when we say don't clean coins? There are probably many threads within this Forum to do with CLEANING coins. If we are talking POLISHING ie. brasso or metal polish then NO don't do it! If we are talking carefully removing dirt from within the legends of a coin then and giving it a gentle wash in soapy water then YES. Removing green deposits from Copper Nickel or debased silver with acetone then YES. There is POLISHING which comes under the heading of deliberately trying to enhance the appearance but there is also carefull removal of dirt and foreign matter that comes under the heading of PRESERVATION as over time this foreign matter will result in surface damage to the coin.

Certainly don't POLISH coins and don't use abrasive methods of foreign matter removal, BRILLO pads etc.

Non abrasive methods such as acetone perfectly ok.

Generally speaking high grade coins will need no cleaning as they have seen no or little circulation however I am sure that everyone has seen high grade coins with black finger prints on them! Even if your hands feel dry there is always moisture on the skin so when you buy that nice BU coin and pop it into your collection only to look at it a couple of months later and see a nice copy of a fingerprint in the field! Years ago in a leading coin magazine there was an article recommending that no matter how good the coin looked it should be first dipped in lighter fuel and left to dry before putting it into your collection. This prevents the appearance of fingerprints. Is this CLEANING and as such to be avoided?

Any cleaning method that changes the natural appearance ie loss of Patina or irreversible damage ie scratches of a coin is to be avoided any other "soft" methods that serve to preserve a coin should not be frowned upon.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Gary

[Peckris]

If its all about newbies and the fact that we dont actually own coins....then these newbies should never buy a house nor anyone be permitted to decorate or make changes to a house incase the next owners dont like it or it detracts from the value.

Cleaning coins is the equivalent of stone cladding then?

Buying coins or buying any collectable comes down to, not unreasonably, do some basic research first but ultimately, "caveat emptor".

(I'm just off to scrub clean my Una & The Lion set).......cheers.

Not exactly. When anyone buys a house - even if they never have before - there are experts out there who you pay a lot of money to, to ensure that you don't lose a considerably larger sum. There are expert dealers for coin newbies to consult, but there isn't the infrastructure to direct one to the other, nor a legal requirement to go through certain hoops before buying a coin. You have to KNOW from experience that a toned coin is desirable, and that its cleaned sibling is a no-no. It's counter-intuitive in a way, so we as experienced collectors should take the responsibility on ourselves in our pronouncements so that there is a sort of 'knowledge base' that newbies can turn to. E.g. this forum.

[azda]

Hi Gary,

Understood but personal preferences on whether its cleaned/dipped/silvered or with a false beard stuck on it, is not what I was refering to.

The point I'm trying to make is not about the rights or wrongs of doing whatever you want to do with a coin but that whatever condition a coin is in when its being sold is entirely up to you whether you chose to buy it or not....it doesnt matter whether you're a dealer or a collector.....it is what it is in the eyes of the buyer and no-one is forcing anyone to buy it.

Why don't you ask CGS, PCGS and any other TPG why they won't slab a cleaned coin?

[Gary1000]

Hi Gary,

Understood but personal preferences on whether its cleaned/dipped/silvered or with a false beard stuck on it, is not what I was refering to.

The point I'm trying to make is not about the rights or wrongs of doing whatever you want to do with a coin but that whatever condition a coin is in when its being sold is entirely up to you whether you chose to buy it or not....it doesnt matter whether you're a dealer or a collector.....it is what it is in the eyes of the buyer and no-one is forcing anyone to buy it.

Why don't you ask CGS, PCGS and any other TPG why they won't slab a cleaned coin?

Yet they will conserve a coin before slabbing it. Maybe not CGS.

So if you have a set of Queen Anne silver candle sticks it's prefereable to leave them black rather than give them a clean occassionally.

[copper123]

If coins are acceptable is totally up to the buyer - I must admit I personally am very surprised by the sellability of cleaned coins these days , back 20 or 30 years ago the coins fetching good money on ebay, would have been considered almost worthless (mostly silver by the way), cleaned copper and bronze is another matter.

IF YOU DON'T FIND CLEANED COINS ACCEPTABLE KEEP IT REALLY SIMPLE AND DON'T BUY THEM!

[sound]

Hi,

I have been investing in coins for about two months and find this thread interesting.

Spoke to a dealer today who I have bought one or two coins from. He has given me advice which I respect and and am grateful.

Am in the process of buying a 1847 Gothic Crown from him. He told me up front that it had been cleaned. Again honest. Also explained the following about cleaning:

Some dealers throw their hands up in horror at the thought of cleaned coins, others don't.

His point is that there are two kinds of cleaned coins, those cleaned badly and those cleaned well. Those cleaned well shouldn't present a problem.

Found this interesting, he said most Victorian coins have been cleaned and older, the market just does not acknowledge it.

He then explained good cleaning practice (preservation?) against bad.

Any thoughts please for a newbie with a thirst to learn.

M

[Coinery]

Any thoughts please for a newbie with a thirst to learn.

M

Go careful buying gothic ANYTHING, especially crowns! With only a couple of month's under your belt, I'd read around a lot!

I'm not sure who your dealer is, but there are well-known 'dealers' who have been picked up by the members of this forum for 'knowingly' selling fakes!

So, here's my advice...read the gothic content on this forum, and whatever material you can lay your hands on, until you know what a gothic is not! Don't get burned at that level, as cleaned coins will pale into insignificance by comparison.

Now, about cleaning...I 100% agree with you that there is good and bad cleaning. I have no issue with certain lightly dipped coins, provided they are big or full lustred to begin with, as it is only these coins that ever look 'right' in my opinion. Shiny bright unlustred silver never looks good!

I confess to dipping an uneven-toned aUNC 1916 halfcrown the other day, but it was for 2 seconds, and still left a decent amount of extremely pretty golden tone behind. The coin now looks a million dollars I think. Of course, the coin will now need proper storage, as you will not be able to 'patch' coins up indefinitely.

Welcome aboard, have a good read around, you'll be pleasantly surprised by the threads you'll find!

[ski]

i choose to not clean coins in any way, why.....maybe i dont have the skills to do so without affecting the coins value/grade....maybe i just like the coins i buy the way they are........i wont buy a coin i cant live with, at times i have and then moved it on.

when i find a 1933 penny covered in guano....i may clean with a little water, purely from the odour point of view

i do hate all the junk gf/vf coins on ebay that havent just been cleaned but polished, i do sincerely believe their value has decreased not to mention the fact that polishing may have just removed a little detail, lowering its grade further.

i guess theres a difference between cleaning for conservation purposes, and polishing for some scallywag to make a quick buck out of a noob on ebay.

long live toning............

[Peckris]

Hi,

I have been investing in coins for about two months and find this thread interesting.

Spoke to a dealer today who I have bought one or two coins from. He has given me advice which I respect and and am grateful.

Am in the process of buying a 1847 Gothic Crown from him. He told me up front that it had been cleaned. Again honest. Also explained the following about cleaning:

Some dealers throw their hands up in horror at the thought of cleaned coins, others don't.

His point is that there are two kinds of cleaned coins, those cleaned badly and those cleaned well. Those cleaned well shouldn't present a problem.

Found this interesting, he said most Victorian coins have been cleaned and older, the market just does not acknowledge it.

He then explained good cleaning practice (preservation?) against bad.

Any thoughts please for a newbie with a thirst to learn.

M

And there are dealers (I've met 'em) who don't know the difference between 'cleaned' and 'mirror finish', of which there are a LOT in the 19th Century. Good way to tell :

The mirroring is all on the surface - e.g. the highest points of the design, the upper surfaces of the legend - while lower parts (e.g. between the letters, or lower parts of design) aren't so bright? The coin has in all likelihood been cleaned, and badly.

The mirroring is mostly in the fields and between the letters, while the raised (highest) parts aren't so bright - most likely this is a genuinely mirrored finish, maybe an early strike or using up proof dies.

[Nick]

I have been investing in coins for about two months and find this thread interesting.

Spoke to a dealer today who I have bought one or two coins from. He has given me advice which I respect and and am grateful.

Am in the process of buying a 1847 Gothic Crown from him. He told me up front that it had been cleaned. Again honest. Also explained the following about cleaning:

Some dealers throw their hands up in horror at the thought of cleaned coins, others don't.

His point is that there are two kinds of cleaned coins, those cleaned badly and those cleaned well. Those cleaned well shouldn't present a problem.

Found this interesting, he said most Victorian coins have been cleaned and older, the market just does not acknowledge it.

He then explained good cleaning practice (preservation?) against bad.

Any thoughts please for a newbie with a thirst to learn.

The edge lettering is one of the better indicators of a fake 1847 Gothic crown (see the 1847 fake crown thread), so do check it out before parting with any money. The only question I ever ask myself whether I should buy a certain coin or not is "Is this the best example I'm likely to be able to acquire?" If the answer is yes, then buy it.

[Peter]

Avoid unless you know what you are buying.Lots of fake gothic's out there.

[sound]

Thanks for the replies to my enquiry. I now found another source of wisdom. Not to be sniffed at when its free

Had a look at Gothic Crowns on London Coins & MC search. Sure did prove my dealers point. A good number had been cleaned, even to my untrained eye. Went for good prices to.

Other than what's been said, what other give always are there that a coin has been cleaned? Either well or badly, and not just Gothics.

Regards

M

[Red Riley]

Thanks for the replies to my enquiry. I now found another source of wisdom. Not to be sniffed at when its free

Had a look at Gothic Crowns on London Coins & MC search. Sure did prove my dealers point. A good number had been cleaned, even to my untrained eye. Went for good prices to.

Other than what's been said, what other give always are there that a coin has been cleaned? Either well or badly, and not just Gothics.

Regards

M

Hairlines in the field is the most obvious but you might also find some residue of the cleaning agent in the legend. With copper/bronze it is patently obvious and largely irrepairable, silver - look out for a too steely tone which probably indicates cleaning some time ago.

[Peckris]

Thanks for the replies to my enquiry. I now found another source of wisdom. Not to be sniffed at when its free

Had a look at Gothic Crowns on London Coins & MC search. Sure did prove my dealers point. A good number had been cleaned, even to my untrained eye. Went for good prices to.

Other than what's been said, what other give always are there that a coin has been cleaned? Either well or badly, and not just Gothics.

Regards

A coin that's been cleaned well, should not be detectable, so you need not worry about those.

Coins badly cleaned :

Polished : silver coins are highly reflective in an unnatural way, copper/bronze looks like it's been cleaned with Brasso or similar (has a bright, pinkish appearance).

Buffed : coin has lots of fine hairlines, especially in the field or flat parts of the design; rubbing marks will be evident.

Over-dipped silver : coin has a overall dull, flat, non-lustrous appearance, with no original toning.

Any coin that has an unnatural appearance, e.g. rainbow toning, has been treated in some way. You will be able to tell after a long time of seeing coins - experience is the best guide.

[Danelaw]

In a few years, when I get over it... I'll let you know what I did to a coin I found. I'm still getting over the horror. As a metal detectorist I found all sorts of coins, in all sorts of condition. I have learnt when to leave well alone....and when to have a very delicate clean up.

I sometimes wake up in a sweat over that coin.If I could turn back time!