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[Sword]

I agree that Britain did not quite "stand alone" after the defeat in France. Members of the Commonwealth had made their own independent declarations of war on Germany. India as part of the Empire declared war in 1939. Nepal for example was at war and was not a member of the Commonwealth. Thousands of Irish moved to Britain to fight.

Even though France, Poland and Czechoslovakia were defeated, thousands of their soldiers, including those evacuated from Dunkirk fought with the along side the British and as members of the RAF. De Gaulle was leading the Free French forces.

However, Britain was the only country in Europe that was at war with Germany and had not surrendered. In that sense, she was proudly standing alone.

[davidrj]

I also think we in the West tend to disregard the incredible contribution of the Red Army in the east. Ultimately the real victors were the US and the USSR.

 

[Sword]

The sacrifice made by the Soviet soldiers and civilians was of course truly enormous and can never be underestimated. Almost 10 million soldiers had fallen by the end of the war. But Stalin did  sign the non aggression pack with Germany which encouraged the start of the WWII. They took half of Poland as their prize. When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union they were totally caught by surprised. Stalin purged so many of the Red Army officers (I have read that it was as many as a third when I was at school) which made their deference much more difficult. I think that Stalin has undermined a bit the huge contribution made made by the USSR military.

 

[jelida]

It isn’t......is it?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-Penny-1877-Small-Date-RARE/332817636500?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Jerry

[Peckris 2]

14 minutes ago, jelida said:

It isn’t......is it?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-Penny-1877-Small-Date-RARE/332817636500?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Jerry

Only on first glance and not consulting references, it seems to be halfway between the two. On the other hand, it may just be a final 7 punched too close to the first one?

[jelida]

47 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Only on first glance and not consulting references, it seems to be halfway between the two. On the other hand, it may just be a final 7 punched too close to the first one?

That was pretty much my thought. Interesting, but not I think what the seller implies. Again.....

[jelida]

Wheras this coin is positively angelic!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1864-QUEEN-VICTORIA-PENNY-UPPER-SERAPH-4-NICE-COLLECTABLE-COIN-SCARCER-DATE/273479590540?hash=item3faca7628c:g:idkAAOSwzfNbqhDZ

Jerry

Edited September 25, 2018 by jelida

[Peckris 2]

5 minutes ago, jelida said:

Wheras this coin is positively angelic!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1864-QUEEN-VICTORIA-PENNY-UPPER-SERAPH-4-NICE-COLLECTABLE-COIN-SCARCER-DATE/273479590540?hash=item3faca7628c:g:idkAAOSwzfNbqhDZ

Jerry

Well, of course it's "upper" - you wouldn't find a seraph in hell!

[1949threepence]

2 hours ago, jelida said:

It isn’t......is it?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-Penny-1877-Small-Date-RARE/332817636500?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Jerry

I don't think so. But might be worth putting it on screen, next to a genuine one and comparing the two. 

[davidrj]

3 hours ago, jelida said:

It isn’t......is it?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-Penny-1877-Small-Date-RARE/332817636500?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Jerry

Definitely NOT

 

[RLC35]

2 hours ago, davidrj said:

Definitely NOT

 

I just sent him a picture of what a real 1877 Small Date Looks like.....

[terrysoldpennies]

This is the 1877 he's selling, it has the two 7s closer together , it is pretty rare though.

[DrLarry]

I am sure I am stating the obvious here and it is a knee jerk response without any research but the lighthouse is completely different in the two pictures 

[RLC35]

25 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

This is the 1877 he's selling, it has the two 7s closer together , it is pretty rare though.

That one is a wide date, 12.5 teeth. A small date is 9.5 teeth.

[DrLarry]

yes but is one not a rev J ad the other a Rev H ?

[DrLarry]

well in any case many thanks I did not even know there was a variety with small date ...Oh pennies Oh pennies they do confuse me so much .....oh that I preferred sixpences !!!!!!!!!!!

Ohhhhhde  to a penny 

Oh penny Oh Penny you keep me so confused

If I were a lesser man to sixpences I would look 

but you ...oh bronze thing you set out to bemuse 

at least with sixpence I would not have to pay £200 to buy all the....B(enter a word which illustrates a sense of frustration)y  ....books

Edited September 25, 2018 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

I will stick to 1879 space shuttle ...they are less subtle 

[jelida]

31 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

I am sure I am stating the obvious here and it is a knee jerk response without any research but the lighthouse is completely different in the two pictures 

Yes, this is one of the other differences between the two reverses.

Well done on the ‘shuttle’ penny, you must look at a lot!

Jerry

[DrLarry]

8 minutes ago, jelida said:

Yes, this is one of the other differences between the two reverses.

Well done on the ‘shuttle’ penny, you must look at a lot!

Jerry

no not anymore I have given up I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. 

[DrLarry]

but in all honesty there seem to be so many strange "varieties" that under the microscope almost every penny I pick up has some strange anomaly of one form or another , I love the concept of diversity in all things and of course each penny has the right to be as is...but it gets a little expensive on pen ink writing all the overprints, over this over that, doubling ups alterations...I spend my time these days painting oils paintings   

[DrLarry]

39 minutes ago, jelida said:

Yes, this is one of the other differences between the two reverses.

Well done on the ‘shuttle’ penny, you must look at a lot!

Jerry

I needed another one to try and understand it the 1879 , mine was too worn to have detail enough to seek an explanation.  When I originally posted it and you responded saying you had one I felt that the conversation on it then died ...I am afraid I want to try and understand why things happen and whilst these are industrial processes that must allow for some variation  and errors just how and why seems to be ignored.  it makes me keep searching to find a rational explanation or at least how such events occur. 

I am a bad collector I have little or no interest in the objects themselves , but  have a simple desire to understand why. something occurs and if so what was the human impact (if any).  I need to know if the twit that engraved an R instead of a B twice in 1861 and 62 were the same person and if so what happened and or if there is any "human record" of the workers , their errors, and the solutions.  Some such processes must have occurred , management must find these problems as someone is allocated time to resolve the issue. 

The whole debate on what constitutes a variety seems to me to have so many tight restrictions that I find myself becoming less and less interested in them .  I fully understand that we have hardly  no written evidence  for any part of the Bronze inception and or process in the early years and or records from the Royal mint on pretty much anything so there is no process by which to follow any line of inquiry,.  Considering that in some  errors a lot of effort is made to resolve such problems , you would have believed that fragments of data might have been saved from these "fires", if, as a public office they were licenced to record the manufacturing process, supervision notes, disciplinary mistakes  and yet there is nothing.  It then relies on collectors to find them, and try make sense of them and the rules seem to follow strange guidelines i cannot make sense of. 

So I have become less and less enchanted by collecting bug, as it seems to me that some external characters decide what is the history and what is irrelevant.  I may well be carefully picking at straws hoping not to move any part of the status quo but it is hard to imagine a more frustrating situation which seems to give us so little to go on to enable explanation of events, or process.   It does seem so very strange to me n respect to the penny issue or the bronze that it caused so much upset that questions were asked over and over again in parliament .  Columns in the popular press relate to it yet when these fires occurred no one found it of of any historic interest to attempt to examine the issues ad write on them.  It seems to have left a void and when there is emptiness it is all too easy for gatekeepers to decide what is interesting and what is not. 

I will keep seeking answers and explanations but there do not seem to be any and all the books seem to be outside of the reach of most collectors. or in ivory towers in a few very limited sites around the country , hence it seems an almost impossible hobby either having nothing at all or just the process of accumulation to make it work.   

[Peckris 2]

2 hours ago, DrLarry said:

The whole debate on what constitutes a variety seems to me to have so many tight restrictions that I find myself becoming less and less interested in them .

What do you mean by "variety"? There are so many types:

• different mints e.g. Heatons, Kings Norton
• major design changes, e.g. 1927 reverses
• less dramatic changes like beaded/toothed borders, height of sea, position of initials etc
• die identifiers
• mules
• die flaws and fills

Just scratching the surface there (no pun intended).

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

On 9/24/2018 at 4:40 PM, 1949threepence said:

We did contribute a hell of a lot though, that cannot be denied. Especially in terms of intelligence from Bletchley Park, night bombing of German cities and in North Africa.

 

 

My father was stationed at Hall Place / Bletchley Park during the war.... Later transferred to occupied Germany... He had NO connection with the code breakers, just army stationed there... I think he said his ability to type put him in good standing.. I'll have to ask him again. .....

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that Hall Place has an exhibit of wartime memorabilia which includes my dad's library card, images, and other items...

 

[DrLarry]

A general question: The other day I was looking through the US site on Ebay and saw that someone had sent away "a lauer  miniature with corrosion" to be slabbed by the NGC grading company.  Does anyone know if slabbing is so cheap in the US or perhaps you can get freebies that would make sense of sending a tiny token 13mm damaged worth about £1 at a push to them for grading?  Also do these places not have some kind of ethical customer service where they might say "stop" to the person asking such a token being slabbed?  I noticed a price tag on it of £49 or maybe $49 cannot remember!

[Sword]

7 hours ago, DrLarry said:

A general question: The other day I was looking through the US site on Ebay and saw that someone had sent away "a lauer  miniature with corrosion" to be slabbed by the NGC grading company.  Does anyone know if slabbing is so cheap in the US or perhaps you can get freebies that would make sense of sending a tiny token 13mm damaged worth about £1 at a push to them for grading?  Also do these places not have some kind of ethical customer service where they might say "stop" to the person asking such a token being slabbed?  I noticed a price tag on it of £49 or maybe $49 cannot remember!

I think you have probably answered your own questions. People slab junk thinking they can make a profit by doing so: "I noticed a price tag on it of £49" 

NGC Grading is not cheap in the US.

Doesn't look like there is any"ethical customer service where they might say "stop" to the person asking such a token being slabbed" or you shouldn't see this token slabbed otherwise.