Silliness of the "Un-researched Purchase" Variety

[jelida]

3 hours ago, Madness said:

Is it possible that the "V" in "GEORGIVS" is an inverted "A"?  Is this common?

Possible, yes, but I think it is probably a die crack, the bar of the ‘inverted A’ seems to be a bit higher than on the actual ‘A’ s on this coin.

As regards the Davissons coin, I think the grade is right but as you suggest a slightly worn die. 

Jerry

[Madness]

18 minutes ago, jelida said:

Possible, yes, but I think it is probably a die crack, the bar of the ‘inverted A’ seems to be a bit higher than on the actual ‘A’ s on this coin.

As regards the Davissons coin, I think the grade is right but as you suggest a slightly worn die. 

Jerry

Yes, I noticed that too.  However, all three "A"s are slightly different, which lead me to consider the possibility further.  The letters were hand-stamped into the punches during the production of this coin, weren't they?  Was there a variety of letter "fonts" that these workers had to choose from?  Is the variation in the "A"s a result of this, or further evidence of die wear?

I looked at more 1787 shillings this afternoon and noticed two others with "clogging" near the base of this "V", but not as bad as this example.  I guess they could all have come from the same die with varying degrees of deterioration.  There were 122 recorded obverse dies and 125 reverse dies, so the odds of coming across three examples of the same die, in a state of deterioration, in a 90 minute period isn't very high.  Alternatively, was it common to have chips of metal coming out of dies at points like this?  What caused the chips?

Edited August 1, 2018 by Madness

[Madness]

Reading about numismatics is fun.  Macquarie University in Sydney has a Centre for Ancient Numismatics, but only for those who already have an appropriate undrgrad degree.  I don't think a music degree counts, but the contemplation of a Bachelor of Ancient History is intriguing.  Studied two semesters of beginner's Ancient Greek (language) at Melbourne Uni about 25 years ago and then a couple of years of Koine Greek.  I've forgotten most of it, but this should help me gain entry. 

Hmm.... food for thought.  They offer the course externally as well as on campus.  Would keep the old grey matter ticking over rather than sitting at home staring at the ceiling.  

[Madness]

I want this one @jelida.  Think you could get it for me for 200 GBP?  😉

Source: Upcoming DNW Auction

Seriously I'm interested in this lot as it has a few coins I'm after and gives me exposure to coins from different eras and different denominations.  What do you think?

Edit: Actually the cartwheel penny is in crap condition.  Any comments on the others?

Edited August 2, 2018 by Madness

[Paddy]

52 minutes ago, Madness said:

I want this one @jelida.  Think you could get it for me for 200 GBP?  😉

...

Source: Upcoming DNW Auction

Seriously I'm interested in this lot as it has a few coins I'm after and gives me exposure to coins from different eras and different denominations.  What do you think?

Edit: Actually the cartwheel penny is in crap condition.  Any comments on the others?

Very nice but I think your £50 per month budget would be blown for the couple of years! I suspect that lot will make more like £500 to £600 at DNW - they generally under-estimate. You have 3 or 4 coins in there that a dealer would move on at over £100 each, the 1718 quarter Guinea well over £200, so with the other bits quite a good lot. (The "Quarter" Farthing is actually a "Third".)

 

[Madness]

17 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Very nice but I think your £50 per month budget would be blown for the couple of years! I suspect that lot will make more like £500 to £600 at DNW - they generally under-estimate. You have 3 or 4 coins in there that a dealer would move on at over £100 each, the 1718 quarter Guinea well over £200, so with the other bits quite a good lot. (The "Quarter" Farthing is actually a "Third".)

 

Bother.  I could have put my $200 refund from the guinea towards it.  

[Madness]

Do I post too much? 

 

Quote

 

 

[PWA 1967]

6 minutes ago, Madness said:

Do I post too much? 

 

 

No......Keep going there is nothing else happening 😄

[Peckris 2]

1 hour ago, Paddy said:

Very nice but I think your £50 per month budget would be blown for the couple of years! I suspect that lot will make more like £500 to £600 at DNW - they generally under-estimate. You have 3 or 4 coins in there that a dealer would move on at over £100 each, the 1718 quarter Guinea well over £200, so with the other bits quite a good lot. (The "Quarter" Farthing is actually a "Third".)

Rather more than that! It's the proof...

[PWA 1967]

2 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Rather more than that! It's the proof...

No the mixed lot Peck 😄

[Peckris 2]

7 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Rather more than that! It's the proof...

 

4 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

No the mixed lot Peck 😄

Ah. In that case, I'd say rather less than that. It would all boil down to how much someone is prepared to pay for (not rare) nice examples of a LIMA halfcrown and shilling, and then how much they'd throw in extra for a (not rare) nice 1787 6d and 1887 double florin. There's not much else there to float anyone's boat.

[Madness]

This is probably the best (non-proof) 1787 shilling for sale/auction that I've seen so far.  Auctioned 6-11 September.  They list it as MS64,  but here are at least five high points on the obverse that appear shinier than the others.  Is this due to wear, or reflections of a light source during photography?  Do you agree with grading?  What do you think would be a reasonable price?  McDonald's "Australian Coins and Banknotes" (2014 ed.) gives and estimate of $450 for this coin in uncirculated condition, which equates to about 250 GBP.  With the guinea partial-refund I should be able to afford that amount by the date of auction. 

Edit: It's possibly worth a bit more because of the "no dots on obverse" variation.

 

 

Source

 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Madness

[Madness]

On 8/3/2018 at 9:47 AM, Madness said:

This is probably the best (non-proof) 1787 shilling for sale/auction that I've seen so far.  Auctioned 6-11 September.  They list it as MS64,  but here are at least five high points on the obverse that appear shinier than the others.  Is this due to wear, or reflections of a light source during photography?  Do you agree with grading?  What do you think would be a reasonable price?  McDonald's "Australian Coins and Banknotes" (2014 ed.) gives and estimate of $450 for this coin in uncirculated condition, which equates to about 250 GBP.  With the guinea partial-refund I should be able to afford that amount by the date of auction. 

Edit: It's possibly worth a bit more because of the "no dots on obverse" variation.

Source

 

 

Ha!  This variant is obviously far rarer than I thought and worth more to collectors.  I found the same specimen in a previous auction here, evidenced by the same wear, die defects and haymarking. It sold for 2200 GBP in September 2017.  I wonder what it will go for twelve months later.  

I'll be kind and leave this one for someone else!  🤣

[Madness]

I've found three coins on the website of "Michael Coins Ltd" that I'm interested in:

1787 Shilling with hearts EF?/EF   75 GBP

1787 Shilling - No dots over head EF+/-pAS   285 GBP

1787 Sixpence with hearts EF(+)/EF+   105 GBP

The prices seem to be fair based upon what I've seen.  Unfortunately, the images aren't the clearest.  I've sent Michael an email requesting higher resolution photographs.  Has anyone bought from him before?  Is his grading generally reliable?

Thanks as always

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Madness

[Peckris 2]

8 hours ago, Madness said:

I've found three coins on the website of "Michael Coins Ltd" that I'm interested in:

1787 Shilling with hearts EF?/EF   75 GBP

1787 Shilling - No dots over head EF+/-pAS   285 GBP

1787 Sixpence with hearts EF(+)/EF+   105 GBP

The prices seem to be fair based upon what I've seen.  Unfortunately, the images aren't the clearest.  I've sent Michael an email requesting higher resolution photographs.  Has anyone bought from him before?  Is his grading generally reliable?

Thanks as always

That's Michael Gouby, a leading light in the dealing and numismatics world. He wrote one of "bibles" on pennies - The British Bronze Penny - and what he doesn't know about coins probably isn't worth knowing!

I think you can trust him!, and I'm pretty sure he has a cast-iron returns policy?

[Madness]

Thanks @Peckris 2.  Just what I wanted to hear!

[ozjohn]

Visited Michael's shop when I was in the UK while he was still trading there. He accepted a GBP 50.00 that was obsolete that I had saved from a previous trip to the UK. Not sure if that relevant  to his coins (which were fine) but shows he is a decent person to deal with. Also he confirmed that I has a Rev. B 1920 halfcrown when I emailed him some scans of it which again shows he is willing to help people.

Hope this helps.

Edited August 7, 2018 by ozjohn
typo

[Madness]

Michael is a scholar and a gentleman.  He got back to me about the coins very quickly providing an image of the without-stop shilling, a revision of the grade and a reduction of the price.  As there was a slight scuff on the obverse, it was downgraded to EF/EF+ and priced at 265 GBP.  Spink lists this variant at 300 GBP in EF.  

Decided to buy the shilling and have worked out a payment plan with Michael.

 

 

 

I believe that it uses exactly the same die combination of the specimen @Rob used to illustrate an "uncirculated" example.  The condition isn't quite as good, though.  

On an unrelated note, many of the examples of the 1787 shilling I've seen have a small raised dot in the centre of the obverse.  Is this an artifact of the manufacture process?  If so, what does it indicate about how these coins were made?

Edited August 7, 2018 by Madness

[Peckris 2]

9 hours ago, Madness said:

@RobOn an unrelated note, many of the examples of the 1787 shilling I've seen have a small raised dot in the centre of the obverse.  Is this an artifact of the manufacture process?  If so, what does it indicate about how these coins were made?

(Apologies for leaving Rob's name there - when editing the quoted post I didn't seem able to remove it).

You really want to track down that article in the BNJ (issue 74?) which is the most comprehensive piece on those coins that I've read.

[Madness]

5 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

(Apologies for leaving Rob's name there - when editing the quoted post I didn't seem able to remove it).

You really want to track down that article in the BNJ (issue 74?) which is the most comprehensive piece on those coins that I've read.

The Manville & Gaspar article?  If so, thanks for bringing it up, but I read it a couple of weeks ago.  Amazing piece of work and written in a very engaging style. 

Now if only I could find a Pingo Proof going for $100 on eBay...

[Madness]

The inkling of an idea in line with my obsessiveness and my inability to see the forest for all the tress: To collect as many varieties of the 1787 shillings and sixpences as I can reasonably afford.  There are many more than just the "semee-of-hearts" and "no-semee-of-hearts" varieties, so I should be kept busy for a while.

Is this a detour in my quest to acquire Proclamation Coins or a re-assessment of the direction my collecting will take?  Only time will tell.  It's sure going to be an interesting ride, though.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Madness

[Madness]

I'm thinking of selling my guinea on eBay as it's not really in a condition worth collecting.  This will then free up money to spend on other coins/books/resources.  Can you please take a look at how I plan to list it? 

Auction starting at $449 AUD (approx 260 GBP)

"1794 George III 'Spade' Guinea

Ex-mount, but neatly de-soldered.  Please examine the supplied images to determine grade. 

Delivered in a Lighthouse Quadrum Intercept square coin capsule and shipped with insurance."

Do you think I should mention that it has been polished or just leave that for the buyer to determine based on the images?  I don't want to mislead anyone in the same way that I was misled.  By they way, I'm still waiting for that partial refund from the seller.  

Edited August 9, 2018 by Madness

[Rob]

Ex mount, polished and flat for a common issue and an indifferent date will only ever be worth melt value. If you can get to within a couple percent of spot from a bullion dealer (or coin dealer), then I would go that route. ebay with an accurate description will likely only make that before fees & shipping costs.

I would wait for the refund before selling as it is the physical evidence.  Get the case opened if you haven't already done so.

[Madness]

🤢

🤮

I wonder if a jeweler would buy it... Up-cycle it again.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Madness

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

On 8/7/2018 at 5:49 AM, Peckris 2 said:

That's Michael Gouby, a leading light in the dealing and numismatics world. He wrote one of "bibles" on pennies - The British Bronze Penny - and what he doesn't know about coins probably isn't worth knowing!

I think you can trust him!, and I'm pretty sure he has a cast-iron returns policy?

You couldn't ask for a nicer, more knowledgeable ,  more reliable,  and fair dealer.....

I've never been disappointed with my purchases from him......