1897 dot penny. Advice needed.

[Peckris 2]

4 hours ago, RLC35 said:

I have two 1946 Dot Pennies. One has a perfectly round Dot, and the other has a round Dot, with a slight crack showing at the top and bottom of the Dot.

Can you put pictures? I've only ever seen it as a vertical dash with one end slightly wider than the other.

[Zo Arms]

33 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Can you put pictures? I've only ever seen it as a vertical dash with one end slightly wider than the other.

More pennies thread. Top end of page 123.

[Zo Arms]

Terrysoldpennies has an unlisted 1934 penny with a dot and a die crack.

More pennies. Bottom of page 134.

I must learn how to do links.

[Zo Arms]

I think that, in conjunction with this thread, Terry's thread titled

1897 penny double dot serifs

should be read.

Two or more round dots following a die crack in the legend.

[Zo Arms]

4 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

On the 1897  F147  dot type I have never personally seen an example with a crack, but Freeman mentions that an example has been seen . So I assume that an example showing a crack is  rare.

 

Your 1897 high tide double dot serif. F148.

And I've spotted that Ian (Alf) has an 1858 penny with a round dot and a die crack.

I've entered 'dot penny' into the search bar and a host of coins appear, all with round dots and die cracks.

So rather than the die crack forming the dot, isn't it possible that the dot was drilled in, to delay the die crack. And prolong the life of the die?

Most die cracks appear around the legend, as do most dots?

[Peckris 2]

18 hours ago, Zo Arms said:

More pennies thread. Top end of page 123.

Pictures here please, would be much appreciated, or else please post the link to the precise page you mean. Thanks.

[Zo Arms]

I'm sorry. I'm that computer literate.😕

Would some other kind soul oblige please?

[terrysoldpennies]

1 hour ago, Zo Arms said:

I'm sorry. I'm that computer literate.😕

Would some other kind soul oblige please?

Is this the page your looking for      dot pennies - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com.url

1897 penny double dot serifs - Confirmed unlisted Varieties. - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com.url

Edited May 17, 2020 by terrysoldpennies

[RLC35]

On 5/16/2020 at 2:36 PM, Peckris 2 said:

Can you put pictures? I've only ever seen it as a vertical dash with one end slightly wider than the other.

Here is the 1946 "Dot" . It is graded F-20 by CGS

2nd photo is the 1946 "apostrophe", which has the Dot with a crack extended from the top to the bottom. It is graded AU55BN ny NGC.

Both pics were very hard to take due to the coins being slabbed. Both coins are for sale, if anyone is interested.

Regards. Bob

 

[Zo Arms]

35 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Is this the page your looking for      dot pennies - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com.url

1897 penny double dot serifs - Confirmed unlisted Varieties. - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com.url

That's the one. Thanks.

What's your opinion of these dots all being man made holes to delay the travel of a die crack?

[Zo Arms]

31 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

Here is the 1946 "Dot" . It is graded F-20 by CGS

2nd photo is the 1946 "apostrophe", which has the Dot with a crack extended from the top to the bottom. It is graded AU55BN ny NGC.

Both pics were very hard to take due to the coins being slabbed. Both coins are for sale, if anyone is interested.

Regards. Bob

 

Thanks for the photos Bob.

You note that the apostrophe has a die crack. Would you say that the crack caused the dot or that the dot could have been drilled into the die to slow the cracks progression?

[RLC35]

10 minutes ago, Zo Arms said:

Thanks for the photos Bob.

You note that the apostrophe has a die crack. Would you say that the crack caused the dot or that the dot could have been drilled into the die to slow the cracks progression?

 

Zo, 

I am guessing the dot might have been drilled into the die to coverup a defect that had appeared in the die field, due to use of the die. How the hole started to crack is above my paygrade, and I am at a loss to identify why. I thought the two different coins are quite unusual though.

[Zo Arms]

2 minutes ago, RLC35 said:

 

Zo, 

I am guessing the dot might have been drilled into the die to coverup a defect that had appeared in the die field, due to use of the die. How the hole started to crack is above my paygrade, and I am at a loss to identify why. I thought the two different coins are quite unusual though.

I've suggested that the crack appeared first. 

A hole drilled in front of the crack will delay its travel and prolong the dies life.

I'm also suggesting that this is the reason for most of the dot varieties. 1897, 1909, etc. A man made hole or resultant dot, to address a die crack.

Terry's double dot serif 1897 penny along a die crack could be a multiple attempt.

[terrysoldpennies]

That really is the big question most of us have asked, how are they formed . Freeman himself at first thought that the 1897 dot was so regular and round that he considered it might be an identity mark, as can be seen on some of the Australian coins, and so he gave it its own F no.  F147 and later found out about a crack on an example in the vicinity of the dot.

I wonder if the initial crack on the die has a second side crack appear off at an angle to it , maybe to small to show on the coin , but allows a small corner piece to brake away where the two join and leave a hole , this I guess would be triangular in shape, but I think it would start to fill in at the corners rounding off the triangular shape into more rounded hole which would then transferred onto the coin more like a dot.  many of the dots I have found are irregular in shape, see below.     As to whether the perfectly round dots are created by the engineers trying to extend the life of the dies , i'm as much in the dark as you.

[secret santa]

2 hours ago, RLC35 said:

Here is the 1946 "Dot" . It is graded F-20 by CGS

2nd photo is the 1946 "apostrophe", which has the Dot with a crack extended from the top to the bottom. It is graded AU55BN ny NGC.

They are in different positions on the coin.

[Peckris 2]

3 hours ago, RLC35 said:

Here is the 1946 "Dot" . It is graded F-20 by CGS

2nd photo is the 1946 "apostrophe", which has the Dot with a crack extended from the top to the bottom. It is graded AU55BN ny NGC.

Both pics were very hard to take due to the coins being slabbed. Both coins are for sale, if anyone is interested.

Regards. Bob

 

PM sent.

[RLC35]

15 hours ago, secret santa said:

They are in different positions on the coin.

 

They appear somewhat that way in the photo, but they are at the same location.

[secret santa]

2 hours ago, RLC35 said:

They appear somewhat that way in the photo, but they are at the same location.

We'll have to agree to differ.

[Paddy]

They look different positions to me. The dot is 3 1/2 teeth over from E, whereas the apostrophe is 4 1/2 teeth over.

[Zo Arms]

2 hours ago, RLC35 said:

 

They appear somewhat that way in the photo, but they are at the same location.

Would you be able to re photograph please Bob? I appreciate that you said that it's a difficult operation but I seem to remember doubt cast in a previous thread.

[Zo Arms]

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Zo Arms
Unreadable

[blakeyboy]

I the late 70's, when you had a crack forming in a motorcycle perspex screen on a fairing, you just drilled a small hole at the end.

To anyone even vaguely interested in this topic, I can thoroughly recommend the books by J.E.Gordon.

  Brilliantly written- the best loo books ever.

[PWA 1967]

8 hours ago, RLC35 said:

 

They appear somewhat that way in the photo, but they are at the same location.

They do look different Bob as the one that is circular is a tooth closer to the E and the flaw being in the correct position.

[Zo Arms]

3 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

I the late 70's, when you had a crack forming in a motorcycle perspex screen on a fairing, you just drilled a small hole at the end.

To anyone even vaguely interested in this topic, I can thoroughly recommend the books by J.E.Gordon.

  Brilliantly written- the best loo books ever.

It is this treatment exactly that I believe is the origin of many of the dot varieties.

The visible evidence of die crack remedy. Plausible?

[Zo Arms]

20 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

They do look different Bob as the one that is circular is a tooth closer to the E and the flaw being in the correct position.

I agree that they appear to be in different locations but I think that that is due to camera angle.

Using the same logic, from the photos, it could be argued that the angle of the E to a radial line, on both coins is different. And yet we know that they are the same.