Penny Acquisition of the week

[secret santa]

Bought an interesting penny in Baldwin's auction last week. Advertised as F15 with weak signature under the bust, it was clearly an F16 with some strange markings under the bust. Close up there is some extraneous metal, perhaps from a die clash, that appears to the naked eye to be a very weak "L C WYON" but isn't !

[secret santa]

Actually, although the "letters" are in a different place from Obverse F (Freeman 4), they are about the same size and spacing. 

[secret santa]

Could it be that Obverse 5 (Gouby H) was originally intended to also carry L C WYON below the bust but was later abandoned ?

[terrysoldpennies]

It also looks from your picture to have a narrower rim than the normal Rev. 4 . Its an interesting one , ether of your possible explanations could be true Richard.

[alfnail]

I have seen similar marks under the bust on several early bun years, attached are two examples from 1861 and 1860. They seem to come in different thicknesses and pointedness (if that's a word!). My guess is that on my two examples this is reverse ghosting of the areas between the teeth. I am not sure this is what is going on with Richard's coin though; it almost looks as though the top half of a C (of LC WYON) is present on that Baldwin's coin.   

[terrysoldpennies]

I'm inclined to agree with Ian that its ghosting from a die clash with the toothed edge on the reverse die, as the shape of the marks don't look to be formed from the letters in LC WYON , and anyway LC WYON would have to be present on the reverse die to be transferred over onto the obverse die.  So  F16  for me

[secret santa]

32 minutes ago, terrysoldpennies said:

as the shape of the marks don't look to be formed from the letters in LC WYON

Actually I'm thinking more and more that they do !

[Bernie]

If L.C.WYON is on this penny, it is far from the position of a Freeman 15. All other indicators as Freeman 16

[alfnail]

I wonder if any member has ever attempted to study differences in LC WYON locations. Perhaps we should all now be examining our own specimens to see if the W of LC WYON is ever seen anywhere other than under centre of the rose.   

[jelida]

Interesting, but I’m afraid I’m not convinced either. The ‘Y’ in particular looks too close to the border to have originally had a vertical, and appears to be a solid triangle, rather than a ‘V’. The ‘O’ would also seem a little low, and there is other ‘stuff’ going on either side of the ‘C’.

Not impossible I agree, but I don’t think there is enough evidence for a very unlikely ‘re-positioned L C WYON’ scenario here,  and can only presume that the demarcation (Gouby G) and then removal (Freeman 5) of the base of the bust was indeed indicative of an intent to erase the signature rather than move it.

Jerry

[1949threepence]

Probably a lone simpleton voice in the wilderness here, but apart from obverse 4, I find L C WYON an absolute sod to even make out. It seems to be half hidden underneath the base of the bust, and you have to really struggle to find it, even under magnification.   

Edited April 24, 2018 by 1949threepence

[alfnail]

I have found an F16 which has some, not all, of the marks which also appear on Richard's Baldwin's coin; my F16 is 'pesky' slabbed so this is the best picture I have at present. I have highlighted the identical marks with red arrows. My coin does have a couple of additional marks which Richard's does not display, and my piece also seems more 'hollowed' under the bust...............as one would expect for this type.

I'm thinking that the marks which are identical on these two specimens seem to indicate both have been struck from the same obverse die and, if that is the case, would strengthen the argument that Richard's coin does NOT have LC WYON in a new 'bust position', and is more likely to be the result of a combination of the reverse teeth gap clashing and some additional metal.

Perhaps Richard could check to see if his piece also has that dot near the end of the outer ribbon.

 

[secret santa]

No dot I'm afraid.

[secret santa]

All Obverse H (Freeman 5) coins have those 3 dots by the teeth I believe.

[alfnail]

That's a nice coin Richard. I think the dot by the outer ribbon on my coin is something that happened later in the life, rather than a flaw or something from original minting. 

I have a lower grade F16 where I cannot see the 3 small dots at bust.

On your coin I notice that there is a flaw from the rim just after F and wonder whether other members may be able to check there own specimens for that flaw + 3 dots and, if found, then check to see what appears where your potential 'LC WYON' is situated.

I probably can't get back to this now until early next week

[alfnail]

...sorry about the spelling mistake in my last post, my brother would rip my head off for that!!

[secret santa]

Don't worry, you see much worse than that on the forum !

[secret santa]

I've just checked my spare F16's and one has got some teeth marks from a die clash which are suspiciously similar to my original specimen above. Perhaps it's just a die clash which looks a bit like L C WYON.......

[zookeeperz]

This is by what I have seen  one of the best 1921 Penny struck. I looked at the LCA and the finest graded by them at 85 pales into insignificance against this Coin. I would imagine this was one of the first coins to be struck. Fantastic strike. I have never seen George with so much hair. Almost a teen-wolf look  and not a hint of streakiness. reverse complete strike just gorgeous. It will go in the safe place for sure 

 

Richard

 

 

[ozjohn]

Looks like this coin from NZ of which I have been tempted with but resisted with difficulty

.https://www.colonialcollectables.com/uk-coins/607-1921-penny-unc-outstanding-coin.html

 

Nice buy.

Edited May 2, 2018 by ozjohn
typo

[zookeeperz]

5 hours ago, ozjohn said:

Looks like this coin from NZ of which I have been tempted with but resisted with difficulty

.https://www.colonialcollectables.com/uk-coins/607-1921-penny-unc-outstanding-coin.html

 

Nice buy.

Thanks

Same coin. I saw by reading the link addy . Thing is 1920-21 specifically to find them without any streaks or strike weakness is a difficult task. And to get 1 without both they are as rare as hens teeth.   I only stumbled on the site yesterday so I still have to browse all the coins. Nice site

 

[Mr T]

12 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

This is by what I have seen  one of the best 1921 Penny struck. I looked at the LCA and the finest graded by them at 85 pales into insignificance against this Coin. I would imagine this was one of the first coins to be struck. Fantastic strike. I have never seen George with so much hair.

It is an absolute stunner - almost perfect strike on that obverse.

[Peckris]

23 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

This is by what I have seen  one of the best 1921 Penny struck. I looked at the LCA and the finest graded by them at 85 pales into insignificance against this Coin. I would imagine this was one of the first coins to be struck. Fantastic strike. I have never seen George with so much hair. Almost a teen-wolf look  and not a hint of streakiness. reverse complete strike just gorgeous. It will go in the safe place for sure 

 

That IS very nice indeed. Especially as 1920s and 1921s are often pretty ropey.

[1949threepence]

18 minutes ago, Peckris said:

That IS very nice indeed. Especially as 1920s and 1921s are often pretty ropey.

The hair detail is stunning, and far in excess of what one would expect from a 1921 penny.

[zookeeperz]

I know it's a little bit in the FUGLY section but it needed a new caretaker  and there aren't that many to be  choosey about. 1879 narrow date penny.