Baldwins of St. James's 9

[1949threepence]

Also, the same coins appear on different pages.

 

 

[1949threepence]

2 hours ago, Ukstu said:

Totally agree.  I often get directed to their website searching for certain coins. The prices are outrageous. Your paying for a brand name when you buy from them.

Agreed - and is ridiculous, as you're buying a coin which could be sold anywhere, not furniture from IKEA or Oak Furnitureland.   

[jaggy]

I always try to look at like for like on these dealer sites. So it is with Baldwin.

So, I looked at their 1790 Droz Pattern sixpence. In reasonable condition except  that the toning is a bit blotchy in places and there is a rather nasty 'streak' on the obverse. Price is 450 pounds.

My own example cost 366 pounds including BP and postage from DNW (Paul Cattermole Collection). It looks a lot better, toning is even and there is no streak. The Baldwin coin is, in my opinion, overpriced by at least 100 pounds.

They do have another 1790 on the same page and at the same price. Problem with this one is that someone has been colouring it with blue marker (unless it is something a lot worse).

They also have an 1831 sixpence. They reckon it is a GEF. When I compare it to my MS65, it looks like a GVF (but I will give them a bog standard EF). It also has some red marker on it. They want 350 pounds, mine cost 280 fully juiced.

Of course, dealers can be expensive. Look at Atlas Numismatics where I have bought a few coins. But, if you are going to be expensive then you have to offer top quality merchandise and a great buying experience which Atlas does. Baldwins are not doing that. While they have, no doubt, some very nice coins, there is a lot of very average coins in their inventory. Problem is that the prices are not all that average.

[NRP]

I have read this thread with great interest and many points are very valid regarding Baldwins website and prices etc. I inherited many coins with high costs when I started at Baldwins last year and was in many instances amazed at what the previous team had paid for items. It is my intention to go through the coins on the website and try and reduce where I can the prices to a more sensible level. It is just a matter of getting the time but I will slowly get it done. With regard to the website, again I agree completely, we have changed it once this year as a temporary fix but it is far from perfect. Over the next 2-3 months we will be changing the website again and making it far more user friendly.

With regard to some of the higher priced items, I would always consider giving a generous discount to clear some of these high priced items.

[jaggy]

36 minutes ago, NRP said:

I have read this thread with great interest and many points are very valid regarding Baldwins website and prices etc. I inherited many coins with high costs when I started at Baldwins last year and was in many instances amazed at what the previous team had paid for items. It is my intention to go through the coins on the website and try and reduce where I can the prices to a more sensible level. It is just a matter of getting the time but I will slowly get it done. With regard to the website, again I agree completely, we have changed it once this year as a temporary fix but it is far from perfect. Over the next 2-3 months we will be changing the website again and making it far more user friendly.

With regard to some of the higher priced items, I would always consider giving a generous discount to clear some of these high priced items.

Thanks for responding to the thread and do keep us informed of progress. As a collector, I want to see top quality dealers out there who are easy and fair to work with so I really do hope that you pull Baldwins around.

[Nonmortuus]

To echo what Jaggy said, please keep us up to date Neil. The prices and lay out of the web store at Baldwins have always put me off so I am really pleased to hear you intend to address these in the near future.

[NRP]

It is definitely a priority and there will be changes for the better!! Will definitely keep you all informed!!!

[1949threepence]

On 11/3/2017 at 1:14 PM, NRP said:

It is definitely a priority and there will be changes for the better!! Will definitely keep you all informed!!!

Thanks Neil.

[oldcopper]

Interesting what Jaggy says about Atlas. I used to be impressed with their coins, until I realised where some of their copper coins come from, how they've changed colour, and their mark-ups in some cases being phenomenal.

For instance 1849 penny, sold DNW 12/12/17 £1700, stained on one side but reasonable coin. Now just sold by Atlas at nearly $6K and it's changed to a glossy dark blue colour! Obligingly slabbed of course by PGCS as MS63BN. It's still on the website but perhaps not for much longer. Check it out while you can. Amazingly enough it is the same coin.

Also, 1825 proof penny, sold Stacks Bowers 13 January $950 Lot 20358 hammer PF63 PGCS, now "blued up" and on at nearly $6K, good old PGCS again upgraded to PF64+. Distinctive die-flaw and spot on obverse, so easy to recognise. 

1805 Irish silver halfpenny, untouched thankfully, now $7,500, $1600 hammer Spink Auction 339, Lot 219 14/1/2018

There are other examples on the website currently. I don't know what other people think, but the combination of huge mark-ups in some cases on the back of chemically enhancing the coin's appearance then getting it re-slabbed and upgraded, is sharp practice in my book.

[Sword]

sold by dnw and described as "some minor staining on reverse, otherwise about extremely fine with a hint of original colour

 

Sold by Atlas and graded PCGS MS63BN 

 

[jelida]

37 minutes ago, Sword said:

sold by dnw and described as "some minor staining on reverse, otherwise about extremely fine with a hint of original colour

 

Sold by Atlas and graded PCGS MS63BN 

 

Wow! They are indeed the same coin, how on earth did one become the other? Perhaps the vendor used their ‘conservation’ service!

Jerry

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Check out youtube ...

 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Sword said:

sold by dnw and described as "some minor staining on reverse, otherwise about extremely fine with a hint of original colour

 

Sold by Atlas and graded PCGS MS63BN 

 

Crikey. Talk about a transformation. Is it trick photography or has the coin been treated? 

[PWA 1967]

Clever pictures and thanks for posting them,just shows the pictures have jumped the price up considerably.

[jaggy]

Far be it for me to defend Atlas. However, the last two coins I bought from them were significantly better in hand than the photos suggested. 

With $80 software (e.g. Photoshop Elements) it is very easy to 'doctor' a photo without actually touching the coin itself.

[VickySilver]

Wow, I hate to ask what they got for the '49??

He got a bit mad when slightly dinged on another chatroom, but steer clear of them; they do seem to have a fancy purchasing budget (and a fancier idea of what to price said coins at on their retail list).

[jasonsewell]

On 02/11/2017 at 1:14 PM, NRP said:

It is definitely a priority and there will be changes for the better!! Will definitely keep you all informed!!!

Are you beginning to restock the Baldwin basement

[jasonsewell]

9 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Crikey. Talk about a transformation. Is it trick photography or has the coin been treated? 

IMO it could almost be the exact same photo, with a few filters adjusted.. Hue etc

[secret santa]

Just goes to show the risks of buying coins from photographs alone. The camera lies like a cheap watch.

[1949threepence]

4 hours ago, VickySilver said:

Wow, I hate to ask what they got for the '49??

He got a bit mad when slightly dinged on another chatroom, but steer clear of them; they do seem to have a fancy purchasing budget (and a fancier idea of what to price said coins at on their retail list).

Went for £1700 at dnw, then for nearly $6k (£4255) at Atlas, according to @oldcopper above.  

2 hours ago, jasonsewell said:

IMO it could almost be the exact same photo, with a few filters adjusted.. Hue etc

 I bet it looks nearer to the original pic, in hand, though.

[jasonsewell]

cer

6 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Went for £1700 at dnw, then for nearly $6k (£4255) at Atlas, according to @oldcopper above.  

 I bet it looks nearer to the original pic, in hand, though.

Certainly! Atlas seems to use Heritage alot (to source and to sell stock that's been sitting) Estimates on their lots always overly high. They seem to look after them. Like someone said previously, they seem to have a very wealthy budget.

[oldcopper]

Unfortunately I can't agree that the photo is in any way deceptive. The colouration of these coins (there are many more on the website), especially on the proofs, are exactly the fake colouration blue that I have unfortunately had too much experience of. Often a darker glossy blue for the currencies and a more brilliant royal blue for the copper and bronze proofs(interestingly, any lustrous areas appear less affected, still usually orange/red).

Here's an interesting example that I mentioned recently to someone via a conversation: check out the Cheshire Collection/Goldberg auction 2005. This is still on the web and can be accessed via Google typing in Goldberg and Cheshire collection. Anyway, Goldberg have a good gush about Lot 3032, the 1853 copper proof halfpenny PF65BN, saying "brilliant mauve and iridescent blue toning" and ending their description with "maybe Queen Victoria herself saved this little darling"! Steady on, old chaps....

Well, I bought that exact coin from Spink Numismatic Circular in late 2001, and guess what...it was a dull orange colour, no trace of the colour it turned into a couple of years later. I sold it to a local dealer a year or so later who then sold it on, still as a dull orange proof.

I can tell it's the same coin due to tiny marks and toning patterns being identical, as it was photographed (in black and white) in the original Spink Circular. The Cheshire collection's 1853 proof penny and farthing looked somewhat similar.

I presume that once doctored, these coins can never be returned to their original state, so for a company to be buying up a significant number of British and Irish proofs and basically painting them irreversibly, is rather depressing. I wonder if the proverbial will hit the fan in a few years, or whether it will keep being the emperor's new clothes!

Having said that, I don't disagree with Jaggy that some coins on the website are very decent and sometimes quite reasonably priced. Like everyone else, sometimes they'll have gems, sometimes turkeys.....It also helps if you can recognise the coins from previous appearances in the trade, then decide accordingly. Bottom line - be careful!

 

 

[PWA 1967]

I think from memory a forum member had a similar experience with an 1861 or 62 proof penny ,cant remember exactly what year.

Although that was just on the Atlas site i think , not an auction and was able to return it .....there is a thread about it on here.

The coins are no doubt not what they look like (either doctored pictures or conserved ) in hand but if you can return anything regardless of the seller atleast the choice is down to yourself.

As far as buying one in auction for a few quid without looking at it or someone else on our behalf we only have ourselves to blame.

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by PWA 1967

[Rob]

I presume the blue colour below is what you are referring to. 1826 halfpenny slabbed MS63 with unbelievable toning, that, not in the sense of the spectacular. It has to be due to either their 'conservation' service, or some proprietary toning agent

[PWA 1967]

This is the biggest problem imo they are cleaning them not conserving then.... putting in plastic and think its ok