Beware the Slabs, Today's Story of the 1845 1/2 Crown

[VickySilver]

OK, I watched the Heritage Auction thoroughly and probably need help in posting pics, etc. but here is what I saw:

 

- Saturday auction saw (Lot 30849) 1845 Halfcrown in PCGS63 sell for 1527 USD

- Today saw (Lot 32651) 1845 Halfcrown in NGC62 sell for 1057 USD

 

My commentary is that I looked at these two lots on HA site and noted that the first had original somewhat ugly toning and was not fully struck on obverse or reverse, with the hair and brow line weak and marks to sensitive area such as NOSE! The second coin was probably dipped at one point, lustre OK with MUCH better strike in these sensitive areas without as much crucial area marks. I believe that the second represented a better buy if such can be said, although with the recent runup of many coin prices it is hard to determine what is fair and what is not.

Proof gold of the 19th through mid-20th C. is off the charts as far as price increases, I think it was the 1826 ?? proof set that went for 280 K USD and the 1893 for above 65k! Yikes.

 

Anyway, buyer beware and shop the actual coin and not the slab as has been said many times on these boards. 

[jaggy]

Good point! 

I thought the 1884 sixpence I bought recently (MS62) was a nicer coin than the grade suggested. I got it for $45 plus juice and postage with other buyers, no doubt, put off by the grade.

I was watching three lots in the Heritage sale, none of which were on my buy list. The first, a 1905 AU58 Florin, went for $550, a full $200 below the low estimate. The second, a 1918 KN MS61 penny, did not sell. The third, a 1928 Crown sold for $500, right at the low estimate.

Unfortunately, there were no 'must haves' for me in this sale so I am keeping my powder - and money - dry for when the right coin shows up.

[VickySilver]

There was an 1918KN in 65 that was especially nice....

[Rob]

5 hours ago, VickySilver said:

There was an 1918KN in 65 that was especially nice....

That might have done me.

I must look at Heritage again as I haven't bothered since they stopped sending the catalogues - something that doesn't seemed to have impeded the purchasing rate given the surfeit of suitable pieces over funds available.

[Nick]

13 hours ago, VickySilver said:

OK, I watched the Heritage Auction thoroughly and probably need help in posting pics, etc. but here is what I saw:

- Saturday auction saw (Lot 30849) 1845 Halfcrown in PCGS63 sell for 1527 USD

- Today saw (Lot 32651) 1845 Halfcrown in NGC62 sell for 1057 USD

Here are the pictures:

Lot 30849

 

Lot 32651

 

It's difficult to see how the second coin only achieved MS62.  It's a beauty.

[Rob]

Second looks better than the first. Maybe the first was submitted by a more important customer?

[VickySilver]

Thanks for the picks, Nick. LOL. 

Yes, my point as the second only 2/3 price of first. Just prior to the first was an 1842 that looked to be overgraded & sold for 3.3k with commission. 

[Sleepy]

Even to my very inexperienced eye the 2nd looks better than the first, the first clearly has some wear on the hair above the ear and the harp and middle lower lion on the obverse.

[jaggy]

The problem is that the photos have different lighting which makes an accurate comparison difficult. Just from those, the Obverse on the second looks better but the Reverse on the first looks better. Also, the Obverse on the second coin seems to have more marks on it and a couple of minor edge dings. That could be the difference between a 62 and a 63.  

[VickySilver]

Well you are more the photo expert than I, but it seems that this would still not excuse the first for a softer obverse strike and even so the reverse as middle lion on bottom right quadrant of shield better struck on second than first. Obverse on second snaps because of better hair, ear, the second tie (which is almost invisible on the first!), brow detail and the lack of nose "hits" on the tip and naris  that the first has. The first also has some modest rim damage at the 7 and 11 O'clock positions with the NGC restraining tabs making the second appear a bit worse IMO.

[youliveyoulean]

The 1st coin has bags more eye appeal for me. As for the grading, don't beat yourself up working out the merits of either. You may as well wet your finger, stick it in the air and see which way the wind is blowing.

[ozjohn]

Have them graded by London coins for a "real" expert opinion!

[Rob]

Only two grades are required. Acceptable or not.

[Peter]

I like the 2nd HC.The 1st leaves me cold..I just wouldn't want it. Take away the slabbers and both could be bought raw for a lesser amount.(and have enough left over for a short break in France).

[Sword]

On 11/04/2017 at 11:23 AM, Sleepy said:

Even to my very inexperienced eye the 2nd looks better than the first, the first clearly has some wear on the hair above the ear and the harp and middle lower lion on the obverse.

Likely to be weak strike rather than wear. Wear obviously lowers grade sharply but weak strike does not. 

[Sword]

8 hours ago, Peter said:

I like the 2nd HC.The 1st leaves me cold..I just wouldn't want it. Take away the slabbers and both could be bought raw for a lesser amount.(and have enough left over for a short break in France).

1057 USD or £842 for the second one is reasonable isn't it? (Not that I have spent that much money on a single coin before). Doesn't look like the slab has inflated the value by much. 

[coinkat]

Keep in mind that we are evaluating the grade of both coins based on an image and not an in hand review. Tilting these coins and giving them both a worthy look in hand may lead one to a different conclusion. While I tend to agree that the second coin looks better in the battle of the images, it may have a different appearance not captured that explains a 62 grade.

The take away is to see coins in hand prior to bidding or buying. Obviously and unfortunately, that is often not possible. 

[VickySilver]

US bidders are naturally bidding in dollars so to them this more a price of about 600 pounds  over the last several years.

[Andrew W]

On 4/11/2017 at 10:47 AM, VickySilver said:

Thanks for the picks, Nick. LOL. 

Yes, my point as the second only 2/3 price of first. Just prior to the first was an 1842 that looked to be overgraded & sold for 3.3k with commission. 

Hi Vicky silver, I don't suppose this is the 1842 Halfcrown your talking about as this one is certainly over graded.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GR-BRITAIN-Victoria-1842-AR-Halfcrown-PCGS-MS66-S-3888-One-of-finest-surviving-/172463015748?hash=item282798c744:g:I3wAAOSwEzxYY-kl

[VickySilver]

Yes, this is Atlas - he at least doubles the price he pays & then lets buyers "offer" him down a couple percentages. My goodness, he is "creative" on the pricing schema but does take offers. Never bought anything from him. He does seem to have a very high budget for auction purchases and is running up many of the non-gold items both in USA and UK. Evidently it is the Japanese that are collectively running up the 19th C. proof sets and gold, esp. 19th C.

[jaggy]

I have bought three or four coins from Atlas. First, they are not always more expensive than coins at auction and especially when the buyers premium is taken into account. Second, the service is outstanding in my experience. The coins I have bought have always lived up to, or exceeded, expectations.

It is like everything, you have to look at it on a coin by coin basis. 

[Andrew W]

24 minutes ago, jaggy said:

I have bought three or four coins from Atlas. First, they are not always more expensive than coins at auction and especially when the buyers premium is taken into account. Second, the service is outstanding in my experience. The coins I have bought have always lived up to, or exceeded, expectations.

It is like everything, you have to look at it on a coin by coin basis. 

It wasn't a dig at Atlas as without doubt they have some beautiful coins, more so PCGS for grading it MS66+.

[Nonmortuus]

They have some cracking coins for sure but the prices asked are crazy for people like me at the lower end of the budget scale, for even the most common dates and coins. I have them as a favourite seller but everything is either out of reach price wise or available in similar grades raw in the UK at a fraction of the price.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Nonmortuus

[jaggy]

I was tracking a 1741 sixpence graded MS62 at a Heritage auction and Atlas also had a 1741 in MS62 for sale. Both were nice looking coins per the photos but the Atlas one had, in my opinion, nicer toning.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, the Heritage one sold for $540 including buyers premium. Add postage and you have $555 approx. I bought the Atlas one for $495 including postage  and saved at least $60 and possibly more as I hadn't entered the bidding.

By way of comparison, a "better than EF" example sold at DNW last year for £340. Add the buyers premium and postage and the price is comparable.

I do accept that Atlas can be expensive but so can auctions. But my point is the same one that I made above. You have to look at it on a coin by coin basis and make the comparison between other sources for a coin of similar quality. The other coins I have bought from them have all been competitively priced compared to what an auction might cost. And, I might add, their service has been outstanding.

Edited May 3, 2017 by jaggy

[PWA 1967]

Its more to do with the costs involved getting them posted to the UK  that effects the price.

Edited May 3, 2017 by PWA 1967