Adjustment lines or not?

[Paulus]

OK so this is milled, but I'm still sticking it in the hammered section!

I've always believed the lines on the obverse to be adjustment lines, but some have suggested that it's likely that they are in fact lines to deface the king's portrait made by an anti-royalist.

What do people think?

[Nordle11]

What are adjustment lines Paul? Is it something to with getting a coin to the correct weight?

[Paulus]

1 minute ago, Nordle11 said:

What are adjustment lines Paul? Is it something to with getting a coin to the correct weight?

Yes, they would scrape off silver until the correct weight was achieved, quite common on early milled

Edited September 28, 2016 by Paulus

[Nordle11]

I had a quick google but a few things came up so wasn't 100%. Do they do that per coin?  Arduous...

 

[IanB]

I think if they were trying to deface the King's face they would have done a better job on it rather than a few scratches.

[Paddy]

I go the other way - I have always seen adjustment marks done to the edge of the coin, often with a file. I can't see the practicality of scraping metal off across the middle. Also it would have been taken as a slight to the king in any case.

 

[seuk]

3 - If beneath the impression of the die it's probably marks from the rolling of the metal sheet or the blanks.

[Matteo95]

I'd go for a third way .... flans were weight also before the striking process , it was easier to correct before than after ...... about the lines to deface the king's portrait I t think that an anti-royalist would do lines more evident and deeper ....

I think this is a similar case to some italians coins where lines were produced during the striking process by the machine ... you can see that the lines have all the same orientation and that some are also present on the below part of the legend ( so not made to delate the king's portrait )

examples

[mrbadexample]

1 hour ago, Paddy said:

I go the other way - I have always seen adjustment marks done to the edge of the coin, often with a file. I can't see the practicality of scraping metal off across the middle. Also it would have been taken as a slight to the king in any case.

 

But that's where you'd do it, isn't it? You'd just nick a bit off the edge rather than the middle. Well, I would, anyway.

 

[Sword]

I don't believe it is deliberate graffiti either. If someone wants to scratch a coin with a sharp point, then it is likely that the lines would all join up. 

[azda]

Adjustment lines, who would take the time to scratch straight lines into his face if it was to deface it, they are far too straight to be anything else

[Garrett]

I'm in the pre-strike camp too.

There are marks not only on the king's face, even on the reverse.

Also Dr Google tells me the mintmark is from a few years before the war, and that coin does not look like it's floated about long.  Of course it would have only taken one dissatisfied peasant anyway.

cheers Garrett.

[Paddy]

I switch allegiance to the pre-strike camp, an idea I had not heard of before. I cannot see them as adjustment marks - no one would adjust across the centre of the coin, particularly if it meant defacing the monarch. I hear the arguments against it being deliberate defacement - the parallel nature of the lines and the fact that they are evident in other places on the coin away from the head.

[Sword]

Adjustment lines across the centre of coins are not that uncommon. A quick Google search shows up plenty of such examples. One is shown below.

I assume the adjustments were made on the blank flans before the striking.

 

[HistoricCoinage]

Whether pre-strike or not, I'm not of the opinion of defacement or adjustment. These don't look as substantial to be pre-strike but certainly not deliberate.

Do they look deep in-hand?

[Paulus]

50 minutes ago, HistoricCoinage said:

Whether pre-strike or not, I'm not of the opinion of defacement or adjustment. These don't look as substantial to be pre-strike but certainly not deliberate.

Do they look deep in-hand?

Neither? No, they do not look deep ... what else could they be? What Seuk suggests?

[Gary1000]

The lines are straight and parallel, just been scraped along a surface, bar top/counter perhaps

[Rob]

The die axis on these is fairly consistently inverted as far as I can establish, but the lines do not always follow each other on both sides, which you would expect if it was a mechanical process associated with the strike, suggesting the two sides were scraped separately. It is unlikely to be just a feature of Briot's machinery as you get lines across the bust right through to G2's coinage, though during W3 there is a greater tendency to have the adjustments made at the crowns on the reverse.

The prevalence of marks on Briot's coins also appears to be greater on full or overweight coins (based on a sample size of about 40). Very few marks were seen on coins weighing 5.80g or less suggesting they were done to reduce the weight.

I read somewhere recently that Briot's coinage was frequently rejected as out of spec weight-wise leading to a large amount of scissel, but can't remember where I saw it,

The only question therefore is at what point in the process were the marks made? Logic dictates that to be more efficient, you would reduce the weight before striking to negate the wasted time.

 

[Guest Stuart (Coinery)]

I personally think that adjustment marks created pre-strike would not remain perfectly straight post-strike, they would deform/curve as they are squeezed into the devices! Equally, I believe, if they were formed by the striking process, at a time the coin was obviously in mint grade, then the process of wear would infill/smooth over at least some of the lines!

Post strike, would be amazing to find out why?

stuart (coinery)

[Guest Stuart (Coinery)]

I personally think that adjustment marks created pre-strike would not remain perfectly straight post-strike, they would deform/curve as they are squeezed into the devices! Equally, I believe, if they were formed by the striking process, at a time the coin was obviously in mint grade, then the process of wear would infill/smooth over at least some of the lines!

Post strike, would be amazing to find out why?

stuart (coinery)

[Guest Coinery]

Equally, I think it's a bad idea to open up and potentially harm the trust and relationship between a small dedicated group of 'secretive' coinies, with anonymous 1-post responses from those who might not care about the harmony and sensitivity that keeps professionals and serious collectors freely sharing their views on here! Just sayin'! Stuart

[Paulus]

Confused as to who is saying what!

[Rob]

I'm keeping mum, as I have nothing meaningless to say.

[Guest Coinery]

Just raising the point that I was surprised I could post without having to be a  member...i.e. Not signed in as a registered member!

[Coinery]

If you know what I mean?