Accumulator

Now that's a very interesting discussion. What do you make of this catalogue footnote to the sale of an 1874H penny by DNW in 2006: FootnotePeriodically, the Heaton mint struck carefully finished ‘specimen’ coins of varying denominations as an example of what the company could produce; in some instances they were presented as gifts to dignitaries and government officials and in other cases were part of the travelling portfolio of a Heaton sales representative (cf. Gunstone, SNC December 1977, p.545; cf. Tansley Collection, DNW 67, lot 369). Truly genuine Heaton mint proofs of this period (cf. Adams lot 268 = SNC April 2005, 2467) are exceedingly rare; most of those so catalogued in the Freeman sale were in fact ‘specimens’ That's fascinating. Presumably though, such specimens had the H mintmark? Yes, this was specific to a description of an 1874H but it did make me wonder about other specimens v. proofs. I was especially interested in the rather damning last sentence about Michael Freeman's own proofs. I wonder whose authority they were relying on to make that rather broad statement?

Now that's a very interesting discussion. What do you make of this catalogue footnote to the sale of an 1874H penny by DNW in 2006: FootnotePeriodically, the Heaton mint struck carefully finished ‘specimen’ coins of varying denominations as an example of what the company could produce; in some instances they were presented as gifts to dignitaries and government officials and in other cases were part of the travelling portfolio of a Heaton sales representative (cf. Gunstone, SNC December 1977, p.545; cf. Tansley Collection, DNW 67, lot 369). Truly genuine Heaton mint proofs of this period (cf. Adams lot 268 = SNC April 2005, 2467) are exceedingly rare; most of those so catalogued in the Freeman sale were in fact ‘specimens’

Toungue in cheek, because I really don't care, but…. I'm proud to be a pathetic SouthEast 'Little Englander' increasingly isolated on the edge of the Atlantic (not sure which part borders the Atlantic though ), and am very happy to let the Scots decide their own fate. A clear choice between a rich kid, bully boy, hypocrite Cameron making his lofty pronouncements from 10, Mount Olympus and an over inflated bouncy castle who refuses to let born and bred Scots, who happen to currently live in Little England, have their vote. Half a million people who are not 'Scottish nationals', but live in Scotland, get to vote. Whereas nearly a million 'Scottish nationals' who reside in the rest of the UK are denied a vote. Glad I don't have to defend that decision.

Excellent photos for showing the depth of strike. Is the coin really that dark or have you just adjusted the colour? The impression is almost proof like. My 1863 has full lustre, but your photos are, in many ways, more attractive.

It's never been thought through properly. Imagine the outcries and accusations of racism if we (England) held a referendum for independence from Scotland, in which the Scottish were denied a vote! It would never be allowed to happen.

Sorry Dave, didn't look at those.

They haven't attempted to… they just say 'mostly uncirculated'. While some are, many are most certainly not.

Interesting that PCGS are doing so well. Despite their reputation as the largest TPG I had a feeling they were losing ground to NGC recently. Heritage have a tie in to NGC and must have pushed a good deal of business their way.

That's a really nice example and, as Peckris says, would command a premium for the strength of the strike. The KN's are generally a lot better than the H's for the same year.

Another interesting thing when I visited…. The coins are in old pvc envelopes stored within pvc album pages (neither of which are that clean). They wouldn't let me remove the coins for viewing so I had look at them through 2 layers of old pvc. Not the best viewing experience!

Thanks guys (except for Gary's suggestion ). I do prefer the second example but will probably go along with the idea of keeping both.

Obverse:

The discussion on H & KN pennies in another topic covered at the ongoing problems with strike during the early years of the 20th century. It prompted me to look at a few of my coins from this period and make an assessment of the best example for the collection. Typically I might have two coins from a particular date. One, the example showing the best lustre, would appear the better when viewed in hand with the naked eye. The second, having less than full, or less perfect, lustre would show a much better strike when examined under magnification. So which should go into the collection and which should be moved on? Here's an example for 1917. The first has almost perfect, even, lustre but the typically poor strike. The second has a less perfect lustre but a really good strike for the year. The first looks best in hand, the second under magnification. Which would you keep?

Not my area, but I'd be proud of that as a purchase. A nice grade piece of history for what sounds like a very reasonable price indeed.

I agree, it's not immediately obvious from the colours in the photo. London Coins/CGS do tend to photograph (and possibly edit) to show bronze as more lustrous than it actually appears in hand, so this may be hiding the effects of the clean. Also, I do feel that the level of wear (to a very well struck coin) is greater than the corresponding reduction in lustre. They've been quite harsh on the grading and this again suggests something wrong. How often do you find a GVF coin with nearly full lustre?

Proof: "a coin which has been specially struck, to produce the finest specimen of its type" So that'll be a coin then. …watch out Mrs Peter!

Sadly, I probably have a couple of hundred 1919's in average circulated condition. They may not good enough to show the variety, but I'll take a look when I have a moment.

What like Heritage pushing the prices still higher. Heritage doesn't push prices higher. Bidders push prices higher. Up to you to decide how high you want to go. Sorry, you should Quote slab buyers push prices Jaggy. Does'nt really help when Heritage start the ball Rolling at an ungoldy amount in the first place either I bid quite regularly at Heritage but I never overpay. If the bidding gets silly I pull out. Very few of the coins I am interested in are so rare that another example will not come up elsewhere sooner or later. Heritage are a business. They are there to get the best prices and, therefore, the best commissions for themselves. However, part of that business model is to provide an outstanding service, which they do. It is really up to us, the bidders, to determine what prices we are willing to pay. If some people are willing to pay silly prices that is their choice and their money. If Heritage sets a high initial price it is, no doubt, because they know that there are people that will pay it. I have to agree with you Jaggy. Heritage are really setting the standards for auction houses in the 21st century and, without realising it, a lot of collectors will benefit from the influx of interest (and, yes money) they are bringing to the hobby. As far as starting prices go, they can't really be wrong a just about every lot sells.

Very interesting, David. Does anyone have an example of a penny with a feint mintmark letter?

Well…. I went and looked at the pennies today. I need to be careful as this is a public forum. Just to give an idea, imagine quite nice bronze coins (not all of them are nice by any means) stored in pvc envelopes for a few decades in damp conditions and you'll get the idea. Lots of verd, carbon and staining. Only the best coins appear in the photos and this isn't made clear. The description 'mostly uncirculated' is simply not true. The 1864 is VF at best. Shame, really.

If you do like George III copper and have the budget, then you might consider going for a proof coin rather than accepting a circulation strike, especially a worn example. Proofs of, say, 1806 pennies are fairly numerous and have a crispness in the detail you won't otherwise find, they also seem fairly unloved at the moment so prices are keen. Again, there are many second grade proofs around but after a while you'll recognise a good one when you see it.

I agree about the eye appeal, but I think you're very harsh with your grading. I think it's at LEAST VF. Perhaps GF is a tad harsh, it is early milled after all, but I really couldn't bring myself to give it more than nVF, it just has too much overall wear for me! But.. but.. there is very little on the reverse! Britannia's left t*t is the obvious wear, but look at the shield, olive branch, trident, and "SOHO" - hardly any wear at all. It's true, there are areas that are GVF, and areas that are barely better than F, I guess I am not comfortable with 'averaging' these out and tend to err on the low side! I would agree between GF and VF but, certainly for a VF grade, one would expect a more attractive coin. The fields look rather pitted, effectively lowering the relief of the design, and the overall colouring doesn't help. Definitely one to avoid as there are many more of these out there!

I thought you were a penny collector!!! Britannia is almost NEVER fully struck in that series, her face and chest suffering in particular, due to the sucking .... [pauses for audience laughter to die down] .... away of metal caused by the very deep cut obverse design. You would be very very lucky to find one that was NOT mushy. You've said it right there… "almost" means it's out there and waiting to be found! Even something like this regular 1918 is way better:

Is that why my bank manager only lends me his umbrella when it's not raining?

I paid about the same as CC's list example, which I've seen. RAS has one too, but for considerably more. Neither of these coins were quite what I was after so, knowing from the photos that I could get my money back, I took a punt on this being better. It has full lustre, with the minutest friction marks on the highest points (not really visible in hand), almost no bag marks, good clean edges and well struck lettering and date. The bust looks slightly better in hand, but there's no doubt that the chest and head areas of Britannia, in particular, are poorly struck. My head says UNC, because by definition that's what it is, but my heart will say AUNC and still be looking for a better one! Does such a beast exist though?