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This is the "normal" date width of 13.5 beads (to tip of the 2) and so is Gouby BP1892Aa as are all my fat face/double chin ones, but Jerry above confirms he has a 14 bead fat face one and a 13.5 bead normal face one, so there is indeed crossover in date widths and reverse sub-types for the micro-variety completist... Hooray! I quite like the fat face nomenclature, actually - does what it says on the tin!!

My 1892 is the fatter face version I think. I struggle with the date width, but I think this is the wider date?

I think this theory is gaining ground, especially when you compare the modified obverse to the 1895 veiled head obverse: Modified obverse R Veiled head obverse It may be a prototype stage before the final "old head" design.

I've taken another look at the two 1889 obverses. Interestingly, I've found that the 1889 F127 which is recorded as Obverse R has a distinct difference to Victoria's jawline as mentioned in several of the above posts. This difference appears unique to the F127 as none of my other Obverse R coins seem to have the slight "double chin" and nor does the 1889 F128 (Obverse S). There are other minor differences around the eye and mouth. It does suggest that F127 has a unique variation of Obverse R, and that Obverse S is a modified version of Obverse R and not a modified version of the F127 obverse. Photos of an 1888 penny (obv R) and 1889 F127 (obv R) are shown below to illustrate the difference together with the F128. 1888 obverse R 1889 F127 obverse R 1889 F128 obverse S

Interestingly, and obviously when you think about it, the versions of 1889 F127 with the missing serifs are the normal obverse R.

My 1892 ‘fat face’ obverse is the 14 tooth date width, and the 13.5 tooth date is the ‘normal’ obverse. Though let’s hope this particular nomenclature doesn’t catch on! Jerry

As she was with the initial unadopted beaded obverse A and B on the pennies.

pity its a nice coin but for that

I too have both sub-types of face/chin for 1892 - a very interesting spot, Bee - jolly well done on raising a hitherto unnoticed variety!! Not that my sample is huge, but all my fat face/double chin ones are Gouby BP1892Aa with the 13.5 beads date width, and the slimmer face ones are Gouby BP1892Ab with 14 beads date (and the BP1892B only-recorded-on Gouby website 13 bead narrow date see: http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/bp_1892_varieties.htm (wonder why he never included this last one in his book??)) All good fun!! Wonder if there are more crossover dates or indeed date widths?

She was said to be unhappy with the jubilee portrait of 1887- 1893 silver and gold; perhaps the same applies! Jerry

In the same way that the tooth enhanced obverse D is designated ‘D*’ in Freeman, should we be looking at an ‘R*’ designation here? Particularly if some dates do prove to come in both varieties. Jerry

I've just flicked through the LCA sold pennies dated 1890-1892 and all the 1890 and 1891 coins have the fatter face and the vast majority of 1892 have the normal obverse although there is at least one that seems to have the fatter variety. I wonder whether there was a subtle attempt to age the queen's portrait (as in 1874) which she then objected to and so they reverted to the previous obverse ?

I think this one is a bit more than bag damage more like a metal flaw or intentional damage on the reverse by the A in half-crown. Probably down graded due to this but still attracted a fairly high grade from NGC along with PGCS who seem fairly tolerant to damage. To be honest I probably wouldn't brought the coin If I had noticed it earlier.

Hi, Just a query. I had a look at my "best" 1890 - 1892 Pennies. These examples being circulated show wear on highlights (particularly wreath and berries) but the portrait is okay and QV's chin is clear. My 1890 and 1891 have the fatter chin and 1892 normal chin. So being curious I wondered whether the changeover was clean* or does anyone out there have either a 1891 Penny with a normal chin or an 1892 Penny with the fatter chin ??? Very Best Regards * I will have a look at the rest of my 1891 and 1892 to see if I can find anything

I've just checked through my dates from 1882 (F114, F115) through to 1894 when obverse R was used and, like Paddy, my 1890 and 1891 pennies all have the fatter chin, but 1882 to 1888 and 1892 to 1894 have the normal chin. It seems strange that this slightly different obverse was used for a 3 year spell in the middle of a 14 year run. I've asked Michael Gouby for his views.