More Pennies

[DrLarry]

5 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

The anatomical anomaly you refer to started in the reign of George IV, and continued deep into the 20th century. Obviously the natural position for that posture and shield positioning, would have shown Britannia's fingers visible outside the shield, with her thumb behind, or maybe resting on top.

It does seem odd that it was never spotted through a magnifying glass by collectors, or if it was - and pointed out to the mint - why it was never rectified. Nor have I ever seen it mentioned anywhere else. 

I'd venture to say that at the time of Leonard Charles Wyon, Britannia's design was very much secondary to the Queen's head. He would have been far more concerned about pleasing her with a flattering portrait. Britannia's image was no doubt essentially cloned from previous designs, without too much thought. Very few members of the general public would ever have known, or if they did, cared.

There isn't a lot the "average punter" can do about it now. It's not stopped them, or me, from collecting.  

You miss the point of my interest in it .  The position of the other Britannias is not so much an issue in all of those the trident is pulled towards the body and the position of the arm to elbow  is in balance,  the hand grasps the trident in a relaxed manner  the older Wyons design is artistically relaxed and has or is in  equilibrium.  My intrigue into the Wyon design stems from trying to understand the mindset of the artist and the design .  He is known to have wanted to move far away from the seated Britannia  designing originally a standing Britannia.  The anatomical problems in the hand and arm are not necessary in the design and trying to understand the nman is my interest.  A penny is a penny, what's done is done but if, by questioning such things, we learn somethings about the man then my " in for a penny" is on discovery and analysis.   The portrait still has it's problems but a portrait is more likely to be stylised to fit on a coin, he did have to return to the queen 3? times to get something that was acceptable to Her,  Albert and others I am sure.  It is strange reading the "re-written" edited diaries of Queen Victoria there isn't much of a mention of any of these portrait issues.  But then we don't know for sure they were edited by her daughter 

Edited December 1, 2022 by DrLarry

[Peckris 2]

14 hours ago, secret santa said:

I'm surprised that there were no bids for that nice 1922 F192A yesterday - it's one of the best of a really rare bunch.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/0e729832873217a63d9c2c16c64c8331/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silver/

it says the closing bid was £5,500 but it didn't meet the reserve.

[1949threepence]

31 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

You miss the point of my interest in it .  The position of the other Britannias is not so much an issue in all of those the trident is pulled towards the body and the position of the arm to elbow  is in balance,  the hand grasps the trident in a relaxed manner  the older Wyons design is artistically relaxed and has an equilibrium.  My intrigue into the Wyon design stems from trying to understand the mindset of the artist and the design .  He is known to have wanted to move far away from the seated Britannia  designing originally a standing Britannia.  The anatomical problems in the hand and arm are not necessary in the design and trying to understand the nman is my interest.  A penny is a penny, what's done is done but if, by questioning such things, we learn somethings about the man then my " in for a penny" is on discovery and analysis.   The portrait still has it's problems but a portrait is more likely to be stylised to fit on a coin, he did have to return to the queen 3? times to get something that was acceptable to Her,  Albert and others I am sure.  It is strange reading the "re-written" edited diaries of Queen Victoria there isn't much of a mention of any of these portrait issues.  But then we don't know for sure they were edited by her daughter 

Simply an observation based on your comments. Hopefully it will be of interest to others on a general level. 

I don't know how many times he returned to the Queen, or even if he did, but judging by the number of different patterns in 1860, I'd imagine Her Majesty did raise some questions. 

 

[secret santa]

9 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

it says the closing bid was £5,500 but it didn't meet the reserve.

No bids

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/0e729832873217a63d9c2c16c64c8331/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silver/

[DrLarry]

9 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Simply an observation based on your comments. Hopefully it will be of interest to others on a general level. 

I don't know how many times he returned to the Queen, or even if he did, but judging by the number of different patterns in 1860, I'd imagine Her Majesty did raise some questions. 

 

in his diary I think three are mentioned one at Buckingham Palace and two at Osborne House but I will go back and check.  My feeling is he wanted to depart from the seated Britannia and create something very NEW...but was pushed by the old guard to look backwards rather than forwards.  The Original standing britannia went to New Zealand another sketch exists in a collection in the U.S I will check the details in the Diary , I have not read it for a couple of years   

[oldcopper]

10 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Simply an observation based on your comments. Hopefully it will be of interest to others on a general level. 

I don't know how many times he returned to the Queen, or even if he did, but judging by the number of different patterns in 1860, I'd imagine Her Majesty did raise some questions. 

 

She dismissed the Wiener shilling bust(s) straightaway.

[Rob]

She was not amused on many occasions. The 12 jubilee head pattern halfcrowns dated 1884 bear testament to that. That bust took 3 years to be acceptable, only to be superseded 6 years later. I don't think she liked it from the beginning, as the 1888 and 1890 pattern crowns were the first incarnation of the eventually adopted veiled head bust. 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

She dismissed the Wiener shilling bust(s) straightaway.

Yes, from memory I think she may have raised concerns about look of her eyes and nose. I don't imagine she'd have been especially bothered about the reverse side, and once she'd said she was happy with the design, that would have been taken as satisfied with the entire obverse and reverse - which would then have gone ahead based on that. 

Obviously Britannia was pretty much the same appearance as on the pre 1860 coinage. 

[DrLarry]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes, from memory I think she may have raised concerns about look of her eyes and nose. I don't imagine she'd have been especially bothered about the reverse side, and once she'd said she was happy with the design, that would have been taken as satisfied with the entire obverse and reverse - which would then have gone ahead based on that. 

Obviously Britannia was pretty much the same appearance as on the pre 1860 coinage. 

Dec 7th  1859 went to osborne to sketch for the new Bronzes Dec ( worked on the model )

Dec 16th Osborne House sitting with the queen  She and the Prince "much Pleased" The queen gave him a phot0 of herself. 

March 27  1860 went to Buckingham Palace Queen and Prince Consort criticised the likeness for the new penny .... "I made a rough sketch of queens profile which which  she was pleased" 

March 30th Buckingham Palace  "few trifling  criticisms" gave him another long sitting for a pencil outline . 

June  20th  Saw pennies and half pennies being struck 

then on July 4th there is an entry which says  "Bad news today The Queen wishes the portraits on the new copper coins to be altered. 

July 21 received a letter from Mr Graham concerning the bronze coinage which I fear may stop our Journey "(holiday)

July 21st to Mr Graham.  Obtained permission to leave town on score of ill health.  Worked till very late in the evening on the half penny die

 

The he went on HOLIDAY for a month.     there then seems to be nothing until the following year January 7th 1861.  To the mint .  Had great satisfaction seeing pence and half pence struck well  from the new dies , whish I trust will be complete all I have to do with the coinage.

 

it seems that he had to alter many things and Gladstone writes to the  Treasury that these extra expenses were not of his making.  "beyond the control of the artist"  he seems to have altered the puncheons twice  once in May and and eventually delivering them inJune   production began in september 1860 They then had to wait until the proclamation on the 4 December to release them.The in Jan 1863 a further payment was made "for the alteration of the dies of the bronze coinage" 

 

there are interesting accounts of the 3 designs one remained in the Wyon family a drawing in the Nat Museum in Scotland and a relief plaque of a standing Britannia with a ship and a pharos in the background.  Sainthill and others pushed for the traditional seated version (based on some idea that France was trying to deprive Britain's supremacy over the the seas).   There were both problems with the BRITT abbreviation and WYON had not included space for the F:D   

[DrLarry]

The Prince seems to have had quite a lot to say on the matter and I am surprised when presented with the models and drawings a choice was made not to do something NEW with Britannia.  For me (personal opinion) the Britannia on the SOHO coins makes a lot more sense .  Ships sailing in from the right are coming from the west and the prevailing wind directs the sails .  The Foot and legs of Britannia outstretched are reminiscent of the west Country and the shape of the British Isles matches the shape of the Britannia. the ship sailing home ...with the  W Wyon Britannia   I have often wondered why the ship seems to heading towards Norway up to the east with the wind blowing from the the North West.  Britannia looks on  waving her trident because the ship sailed seems to have missed her.  It is fun to speculate why these kinds of questions were not considered.  I suppose they were if the whole maritime supremacy thing is part of the written story of the penny design.  Perhaps you are right and the queen was more interested in her portrait than the  story playing out on the reverse.  Don't get too serious ....speculation and counter speculation helps keep news or fake news alive

[oldcopper]

3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes, from memory I think she may have raised concerns about look of her eyes and nose. I don't imagine she'd have been especially bothered about the reverse side, and once she'd said she was happy with the design, that would have been taken as satisfied with the entire obverse and reverse - which would then have gone ahead based on that. 

Obviously Britannia was pretty much the same appearance as on the pre 1860 coinage. 

I have to say the Wiener bust in not pretty, she looks a bit hard. I can't blame Victoria for rejecting it. The reverse would have been incidental as you say.

[Peckris 2]

13 hours ago, secret santa said:

No bids

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/0e729832873217a63d9c2c16c64c8331/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silver/

This is contradictory. It says - as you do - "0 bids", but also says "Closing bid: 5,500 GBP"...

[1949threepence]

29 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

This is contradictory. It says - as you do - "0 bids", but also says "Closing bid: 5,500 GBP"...

Wonder what the reserve was? Maybe there was a notional bid of £5,500, but it was not considered as an effective bid as below the reserve price.  

[secret santa]

Given that the estimate was £10-12K, I imagine that the reserve was somewhat higher than £5.5K but, if so, why start so low ?

Is that a "come and get me" starting level ?

In the same sale, here's an example of a coin that didn't meet its reserve although it did have a bid, so I assume that no bids means no bids, to paraphrase Theresa May.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/d3cfc4b59ea829d9300d9c650f7b8836/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silv-lot-454/

[Peckris 2]

12 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Given that the estimate was £10-12K, I imagine that the reserve was somewhat higher than £5.5K but, if so, why start so low ?

Is that a "come and get me" starting level ?

In the same sale, here's an example of a coin that didn't meet its reserve although it did have a bid, so I assume that no bids means no bids, to paraphrase Theresa May.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/d3cfc4b59ea829d9300d9c650f7b8836/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silv-lot-454/

Bid of only £25 for those 3 beauties? Someone was 'having a laugh'.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Given that the estimate was £10-12K, I imagine that the reserve was somewhat higher than £5.5K but, if so, why start so low ?

Is that a "come and get me" starting level ?

In the same sale, here's an example of a coin that didn't meet its reserve although it did have a bid, so I assume that no bids means no bids, to paraphrase Theresa May.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/d3cfc4b59ea829d9300d9c650f7b8836/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silv-lot-454/

Not surprised as it's certainly one of the best, if not the best out there. Maybe, what? GVF, possibly NEF. You'd wait a lifetime to even see one better.

Wonder if it has any provenance attached. 

[Bruce]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Given that the estimate was £10-12K, I imagine that the reserve was somewhat higher than £5.5K but, if so, why start so low ?

Is that a "come and get me" starting level ?

In the same sale, here's an example of a coin that didn't meet its reserve although it did have a bid, so I assume that no bids means no bids, to paraphrase Theresa May.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/d3cfc4b59ea829d9300d9c650f7b8836/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silv-lot-454/

My result showing the same.  If my bid didn't meet reserve, they are showing 1 bid n reserve not met.  For the 1922 penny, the reserve maybe at 8k, 10k or 12k, only auctioneer know.  I have placed bid for a medal lot with estimate at 30-35, but i remember the reserve was at 50 or 60.

[VickySilver]

I really don't get the aggravating philosophy of having a starting bid less than the minimum bid. It IMHO does NOT generate bidding frenzies or increase of actual buying interest.

[Peckris 2]

11 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Not surprised as it's certainly one of the best, if not the best out there. Maybe, what? GVF, possibly NEF. You'd wait a lifetime to even see one better.

Wonder if it has any provenance attached. 

Does anyone have an idea of how many are 'out there'? Presumably more - though perhaps not many more - than the 1933, which would make it one of rarest and most desirable 20th century pennies (excluding the 1920, 1952, and 1954 which - being presumed singletons - are beyond the reach of the fattest purse).

[Iannich48]

Maybe the sellers could mention what the actual reserve is, before the auction finishes.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Iannich48 said:

Maybe the sellers could mention what the actual reserve is, before the auction finishes.

It should surely be in the advance auction information, rendering it pointless for the auctioneer to start the bidding on any less. 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Does anyone have an idea of how many are 'out there'? Presumably more - though perhaps not many more - than the 1933, which would make it one of rarest and most desirable 20th century pennies (excluding the 1920, 1952, and 1954 which - being presumed singletons - are beyond the reach of the fattest purse).

There's 14 known on Richard's rarest pennies site, which makes it about level with the 1877 F90, narrow date, but somewhat better state of preservation.

link 

[Fubar]

20 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

It should surely be in the advance auction information, rendering it pointless for the auctioneer to start the bidding on any less. 

There are several reasons that the auctioneer will start below the lower estimate -
There is no reserve.
The reserve is lower than the bottom estimate.
He thinks the estimate/reserve is too high and he wants to move on quickly.
He's going to bounce bids "off the wall" to get interest going. (He's allowed to do this in a limited way up to the reserve by law)
He's trying it on as previously suggested but this is rare and self defeating.

I could never understand the secrecy about reserves. As a porter I was only allowed to say that it wouldn't be higher than the lower estimate. Don't forget the estimate is usually based on guesswork and a wee bit of research. The reserve is totally down to the customer and the auctioneer can only recommend a figure. A lot of customers usually have an inflated idea of the worth of an object.

A lot of estimates are a bit like basing who is going to win a football match by reference to  teams from 10 years ago. 🤣

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Fubar said:

There are several reasons that the auctioneer will start below the lower estimate -
There is no reserve.
The reserve is lower than the bottom estimate.
He thinks the estimate/reserve is too high and he wants to move on quickly.
He's going to bounce bids "off the wall" to get interest going. (He's allowed to do this in a limited way up to the reserve by law)
He's trying it on as previously suggested but this is rare and self defeating.

I could never understand the secrecy about reserves. As a porter I was only allowed to say that it wouldn't be higher than the lower estimate. Don't forget the estimate is usually based on guesswork and a wee bit of research. The reserve is totally down to the customer and the auctioneer can only recommend a figure. A lot of customers usually have an inflated idea of the worth of an object.

A lot of estimates are a bit like basing who is going to win a football match by reference to  teams from 10 years ago. 🤣

Thanks - very useful info. 

[VickySilver]

I don't have issue with where the estimate is, and as you've said, who really cares. And bidding can begin at, above or below this number. What I don't understand the start below reserve since it is not a "real" auction IMHO & the wall bouncing idea is likely poor as evidenced in this auction.