1963 proof penny

[RChris]

1963 proof penny. These are pics sent to me by the dealer. Not yet acquired but I have the opportunity. I'd just like advice please on how much I should pay for it?

[argentumandcoins]

Obviously I do not have the coin in hand, but it looks like a bog standard semi-toned currency issue to me.

Is the dealer a reputable dealer or an ebay instant expert?

Personally I would be asking for money to take it off somebody elses hands.

Edited July 5, 2013 by argentumandcoins

[RChris]

Not the best picture when enclosed like that obviously, but it looks kosher to me.....he's a respected US dealer.

[RChris]

Not the best picture when enclosed like that obviously, but it looks kosher to me.....he's a respected US dealer.

You could say the same about Stephens 1964 here http://www.mycoincollection.co.uk/page12.html

[RChris]

I tried to edit that but made a balls of it and now the system won't let me edit at all.....

[argentumandcoins]

All I can say about the coin is that it is a well struck example. The pictures make the rim width look unequal (could be the camera of course) which should ring alarm bells. The rims also look rounded and not particularly sharp. If it is actually a proof it certainly would not be one that I would want in my collection, but, each to his own I suppose.

[Colin88]

That is not a 1963 proof penny.....respected US dealer or not.

[VickySilver]

Yikes, if he WAS a respected dealer, s/he lost points on this NON-proof.

P-L-E-A-S-E!!!!!!

[Peckris]

Obviously I do not have the coin in hand, but it looks like a bog standard semi-toned currency issue to me.

Is the dealer a reputable dealer or an ebay instant expert?

Personally I would be asking for money to take it off somebody elses hands.

Agreed. There's nothing about it that says "proof" to me. And even if it was certified by the Royal Mint, I'd still not want it. A proof coin is desirable for its superior qualities, not for its rarity, and there's nothing about that to set it apart from the bog standard currency penny.

[Accumulator]

Not the best picture when enclosed like that obviously, but it looks kosher to me.....he's a respected US dealer.

You could say the same about Stephens 1964 here http://www.mycoincollection.co.uk/page12.html

To be honest, I'm not totally convinced about my 1964 though, and I know it doesn't show in the photos, it does have a strongly proof-like surface. As far as your coin is concerned, I really can't see anything that says 'proof' to me, but it's very difficult to see much through plastic film.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Accumulator

[RChris]

Thanks chaps - I'm really glad I asked. I'll tell him "my" concerns and at least try to get some better pics of it.

[RChris]

Thanks chaps - I'm really glad I asked. I'll tell him "my" concerns and at least try to get some better pics of it.

Thanks for your comments to my post - as a novice It's better to ask than get burned. I got the guy to send better pictures so can you cast your eye over these and let me know if you still don't think it's a proof.

I doubt these pics will make any of you change your mind about it. Even to me it looks like a good ordinary penny. But why is he so sure (probably in all good faith or am I being naive?) it is?

So a question; If there are only 2-5 known, how many people have ever had one in hand to know what they should look like? Even the '37, '50, '51 & '53 proofs are never like the 1970 for example - which to my eye always looks like something out of a Lucky Bag - too blingy in modern parlence. I've seen a few of the older proofs and they often need tilting or turning and a good looking at to be sure.

No names of course but I quoted him some of the forum comments......he replies:

"We're known off of eBay (and aside from our international sales company Prestigious Sales) as GBC coins (Great Britain Coins). We may be the largest British Coin Dealer in the World - working with coins now for nearly 65 years. . . but what would we know?"

I doubt very much I'll buy the coin anyway - he's asking $1500.00 !!

[Accumulator]

A couple of the photos are promising (others are not) but, unless I was able to actually see the coin, I'd want some independent verification of it being a proof. Even then, I'd probably want a second opinion. How about offering £1,500 on the basis of it being slabbed as a proof by CGS? Or getting an independent report by, say, Mark Rasmussen? For a genuine proof, that's a fair price though.

As an aside, for a £1,500 (asking) coin its getting some rough handling by these so called experts!

Edited July 6, 2013 by Accumulator

[RChris]

A couple of the photos are promising (others are not) but, unless I was able to actually see the coin, I'd want some independent verification of it being a proof. Even then, I'd probably want a second opinion. How about offering £1,500 on the basis of it being slabbed as a proof by CGS? Or getting an independent report by, say, Mark Rasmussen? For a genuine proof, that's a fair price though.

As an aside, for a £1,500 (asking) coin its getting some rough handling by these so called experts!

Asking for slabbing included is a good idea. It's $1500 USD if that makes it any better.....

[Peckris]

Thanks chaps - I'm really glad I asked. I'll tell him "my" concerns and at least try to get some better pics of it.

Thanks for your comments to my post - as a novice It's better to ask than get burned. I got the guy to send better pictures so can you cast your eye over these and let me know if you still don't think it's a proof.

I doubt these pics will make any of you change your mind about it. Even to me it looks like a good ordinary penny. But why is he so sure (probably in all good faith or am I being naive?) it is?

So a question; If there are only 2-5 known, how many people have ever had one in hand to know what they should look like? Even the '37, '50, '51 & '53 proofs are never like the 1970 for example - which to my eye always looks like something out of a Lucky Bag - too blingy in modern parlence. I've seen a few of the older proofs and they often need tilting or turning and a good looking at to be sure.

No names of course but I quoted him some of the forum comments......he replies:

"We're known off of eBay (and aside from our international sales company Prestigious Sales) as GBC coins (Great Britain Coins). We may be the largest British Coin Dealer in the World - working with coins now for nearly 65 years. . . but what would we know?"

I doubt very much I'll buy the coin anyway - he's asking $1500.00 !!

To be honest, even if it was definitely a certified proof, I still wouldn't want it. A proof should be noticeably superior to a currency coin, and that penny just isn't. Why would I pay $1500 for a definite proof that was absolutely identical to a very common example?

You're absolutely right about proofs between 1937 and 1953, but it should be pointed out that those proofs are relatively common, and comparatively cheap especially their differential to non-proof examples.

[argentumandcoins]

Did your man provide any provenance or did he find it in a GB bulk lot on ebay?

I am still certain that it is just a well struck currency piece and 100% agree with Peck. Why would you want it even if it was a proof? For rarity go and buy a nice proof or pattern Soho type. At around £1300 you would get something almost as rare and a hundred times nicer to look at!

If you like Pennies you could pick up a nice Moore pattern at half of that price or less, a Victorian proof at around the same money or a George V proof for a third of that.

Do your homework and a bit of legwork and you'll be much happier with the end result.

As regards to your mans claims I can say beyond doubt that he is not the largest GB dealer in the world.

Had to edit just to add; After 65 years in the trade you would think he would have learnt how to handle proof coins correctly :D :D :D

Edited July 6, 2013 by argentumandcoins

[azda]

Sorry but thats not a proof strike for me either. If there's only 2-5 known it would and should look Highly polished after only a Maximum of 5 coins struck. After being in business 65 years he still won't know everything. Ask him what the distinctions are between the proof and currency as you cannot Tell personally.

Should'nt he be retired after 65 years, he should consider it as his eyesight has gone, he Must be pushing 90 years old if thats the case

[VickySilver]

The usual caveats about coin in hand not withstanding - the coin is simply not a proof and can't see how except in the most ignorant of circumstances that a well-respected TPG slabber would certify it as such.

I would gladly buya nice example of the 1963 in proof for about that amount. This coin I would not buy for a quid.

[Paulus]

Staggered that a supposedly reputable dealer would handle a supposedly proof $1500 coin without gloves or other protection ... that is 'proof' enough for me that it is not worth what he is asking for it!

[Colin88]

Staggered that a supposedly reputable dealer would handle a supposedly proof $1500 coin without gloves or other protection ... that is 'proof' enough for me that it is not worth what he is asking for it!

He!s not the largest coin dealer in the world.....he clearly has no idea how to handle proof coins...he must be nearly 90......absolute twaddle.....

[Paulus]

Staggered that a supposedly reputable dealer would handle a supposedly proof $1500 coin without gloves or other protection ... that is 'proof' enough for me that it is not worth what he is asking for it!

He!s not the largest coin dealer in the world.....he clearly has no idea how to handle proof coins...he must be nearly 90......absolute twaddle.....

RChris, you have been warned!

[pies]

I would of thought a proof of this kind would have some provenance as well

[RChris]

RChris, you have been warned!

Well & truly and I'm very grateful for all your input. Shows how a novice can be fleeced I suppose. But that's why I asked....

John Argentum asks why would I want it? Because it's what I like/collect/am interested in - why else? As you say - each to his own.

Anything wrong with that? I don't collect proof or pattern Soho types or Moore patterns or even Victorian pennies so why should I look for one just because you think I should? I can't be happier with something that doesn't float my boat. I just saw this (so called) 1963 proof and as it's relevant to what interests me and what I collect, I thought I'd enquire about it. And also why I asked my peers - because I wanted to know if I was doing the right thing or not and as it turns out, (obviously) not. So mission accomplished for me.

Anyway, an FYI for all, this is the dealer concerned.

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/THE-BAY-PEDDLER/3-British-Coins-/_i.html?_fsub=12784226&_sid=214798585&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

[Paulus]

Maybe just me but I wouldn't go anywhere near that, perhaps just based on the presentation and the BIN prices, but also instinct screams NO!!

[Rob]

Somebody needs to disable the C, H, U and N keys on his keyboard. A special license to only allow restricted use of the X key wouldn't go amiss either. Some of those prices are multiples of what they should be, or in the case of the 1963 penny, 1000x. This is worse than our friend in Dundee.