Difference in Grading

[Gary]

Here are two 1926 Pennies, one bought in the eighties from a well known dealer Frank Webster and another bought recently from an internet platform. One was graded as GF/F buy the seller and the other as EF...... can you spot the difference?

[Red Riley]

Here are two 1926 Pennies, one bought in the eighties from a well known dealer Frank Webster and another bought recently from an internet platform. One was graded as GF/F buy the seller and the other as EF...... can you spot the difference?

Ye Gods... the rule of thumb I use for 1895-1936 pennies is that all lines of the shield should be visible at VF (slightly more stringent for earlier coins as the shield is rather more robust). Need I ask which one graded it EF?

[Gary]

Ye Gods... the rule of thumb I use for 1895-1936 pennies is that all lines of the shield should be visible at VF (slightly more stringent for earlier coins as the shield is rather more robust). Need I ask which one graded it EF?

The Dealer, Frank Webster, graded his as GF/F and it is the coin on the right. I totally agree with you if a penny is to make the VF grade then all the shield detail should be clearly visable.

[Chris Perkins]

I hope it wasn't a seriuous dealer that called it EF, as that's just silly.

[TomGoodheart]

Hmmm ... I do rather feel that grading standards have slipped over the years. Not necessarily in an attempt to trick buyers, since there are a few well known dealers whose grades I have wondered about. Perhaps just a general .. laxity?

I think there are some such as Brian Dawson and Colin Cooke (who I can name as they aren't here) who would do a double take at some current dealers' grades. And as to ebay, well ...

I wonder if it's not a generation thing? Many of the .. ahem .. senior .. dealers used to work for Spink, Baldwins and so on and learnt their grading from 1960s standards. Younger dealers don't all have that experience. Now clearly there are some who still grade conservatively, such as Chris here. And there are still a few who if you ask will explain how they came to their decision. But many I think are .. a little generous. But hopefully not gF to EF generous!

Now if all coins were like hammered where the degree of wear is not always the ultimate decider of desirability, it wouldn't matter much. But where price is directly linked to grade, such as in the US, there's a risk of the inexperienced (at least) losing out when they come to sell their so-called EF beauties.

Edited May 6, 2012 by TomGoodheart

[Gary]

I hope it wasn't a seriuous dealer that called it EF, as that's just silly.

It was bought from america and the seller seems to only sell coins and stamps. As I understand it there is a difference in the grading system used in the US but surely it cant be that way out. Obviously I did not buy it as EF and if no one has spotted it they are the Modified Effigy.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Gary

[Chris Perkins]

I must say Tom, I had a problem with Colin Cooke's grading a couple of times. Don't know if one of his employees was at fault, but I do remember a couple of coins graded as UNC that I'm postitive had minimal wear. A learned friend of mine was also of the same opinion for different purchases.

I haven't bought anything from CC for ages now though, so that's no reflection of current practices.

[Peter]

Both coins are marginal Fine.I look at the shield.The question about ME or not doesn't come into it.I have about a dozen better than this but won't sell because of the joys of Ebay.I could describe a F as VF and get a happy buyer at £50 or the same coin with no description for .99p.

I don't know if anyone else saw him but at the Midland last year there was an idiot selling Victorian silver at least 3 grades over stated (no kidding).I just laughed and walked away.

[azda]

I must say Tom, I had a problem with Colin Cooke's grading a couple of times. Don't know if one of his employees was at fault, but I do remember a couple of coins graded as UNC that I'm postitive had minimal wear. A learned friend of mine was also of the same opinion for different purchases.

I haven't bought anything from CC for ages now though, so that's no reflection of current practices.

I sent one back to CC because of the grading

[Peter]

I must say Tom, I had a problem with Colin Cooke's grading a couple of times. Don't know if one of his employees was at fault, but I do remember a couple of coins graded as UNC that I'm postitive had minimal wear. A learned friend of mine was also of the same opinion for different purchases.

I haven't bought anything from CC for ages now though, so that's no reflection of current practices.

I sent one back to CC because of the grading

Colin died 7 years ago.

I sent coins back before he died.

Overall one of the better honest dealers.

Jeffrey,Barry Murphy,Saltford,Anthony Hulse,Ian Pratt(sells at the Midland) are all highly recommended.

and Cambridge Coins for the bargains

[declanwmagee]

I had to give an ebay seller a lesson in grading just the other day. Standard stuff: 1921 florin VF+ described as EF+.

When I challenged him he said, and I quote:

"Hi Declan just read your feed back although positive i never graded the coin all the coins i am selling have been bought from Colin Cooke who i believe is a very reputable international coin dealer i have bought these over many years all i can think is i have mixed coin up so would be happy to refund although i do think it was a very competitive price is it possible to change your feedback kind regards"

I just told him that there was more to grading coins than repeating what a dealer says...

Needless to say I didn't change my feedback. It wasn't negative, or even harsh, I just told him to watch his overgrading.

An Anti-Overgrading Campaign would do eBay no harm at all.

[Accumulator]

Here are two 1926 Pennies, one bought in the eighties from a well known dealer Frank Webster and another bought recently from an internet platform. One was graded as GF/F buy the seller and the other as EF...... can you spot the difference?

As everyone has said, both coins are around F and no better (an EF description is outrageous). According to VR Court's survey, around 1 in 40 1926 pennies are ME so, with a (low) mintage of 4.4M only circa 100,000 MEs were produced. Typically ME's of the grade shown sell for £30-£90. VF, EF and UNC grades seem to command from a few hundred up to £2-3K.

[Peter]

Here are two 1926 Pennies, one bought in the eighties from a well known dealer Frank Webster and another bought recently from an internet platform. One was graded as GF/F buy the seller and the other as EF...... can you spot the difference?

As everyone has said, both coins are around F and no better (an EF description is outrageous). According to VR Court's survey, around 1 in 40 1926 pennies are ME so, with a (low) mintage of 4.4M only circa 100,000 MEs were produced. Typically ME's of the grade shown sell for £30-£90. VF, EF and UNC grades seem to command from a few hundred up to £2-3K.

If you can get from Ebay that level for NF/F ME's help me with UNC scottish 1/-.

99p or not sold...these buggers made a fortune back in the 60's

but a shite 1887 jubliee will make £25.Go to a coin fair and buy them for £2.

[Rob]

Here are two 1926 Pennies, one bought in the eighties from a well known dealer Frank Webster and another bought recently from an internet platform. One was graded as GF/F buy the seller and the other as EF...... can you spot the difference?

Yes. One is generally flat, the other is extremely flat.

[Nick]

I must say Tom, I had a problem with Colin Cooke's grading a couple of times. Don't know if one of his employees was at fault, but I do remember a couple of coins graded as UNC that I'm postitive had minimal wear. A learned friend of mine was also of the same opinion for different purchases.

I haven't bought anything from CC for ages now though, so that's no reflection of current practices.

CC grading is as bad as MP in my opinion. Both quote at least one full grade over actual, although MP takes the biscuit on price.

[Peckris]

I must say Tom, I had a problem with Colin Cooke's grading a couple of times. Don't know if one of his employees was at fault, but I do remember a couple of coins graded as UNC that I'm postitive had minimal wear. A learned friend of mine was also of the same opinion for different purchases.

I haven't bought anything from CC for ages now though, so that's no reflection of current practices.

I sent one back to CC because of the grading

Colin died 7 years ago.

I sent coins back before he died.

Overall one of the better honest dealers.

Jeffrey,Barry Murphy,Saltford,Anthony Hulse,Ian Pratt(sells at the Midland) are all highly recommended.

and Cambridge Coins for the bargains

I must say Tom, I had a problem with Colin Cooke's grading a couple of times. Don't know if one of his employees was at fault, but I do remember a couple of coins graded as UNC that I'm postitive had minimal wear. A learned friend of mine was also of the same opinion for different purchases.

I haven't bought anything from CC for ages now though, so that's no reflection of current practices.

CC grading is as bad as MP in my opinion. Both quote at least one full grade over actual, although MP takes the biscuit on price.

My experience with CC was exactly the same - a few coins returned over their grade. The BIG difference between him and less than honest people is that there was never any quibble over getting a full refund with no questions asked.

[Peter]

I won't defend or any other dealer.

Every coin I buy usually has an image.

It must be awful for every dealer to downgrade his coins.I don't buy GVF and expect EF.

CC has noticeably let his sights down with early copper since his untimely death.

It is a shift in the market where GF has become VF.

[VickySilver]

Not sure if it is fair to hang CC by indirect references to grading....I very much doubt they graded either of the two coins EF. As to others' experiences, I say post up the pictures and let us have a go at judging grading veracity. I have bought some very high end pieces from CC and been enormously pleased by them, but can not really cite examples of circulated pieces.

[Coppers]

Not sure if it is fair to hang CC by indirect references to grading....I very much doubt they graded either of the two coins EF. As to others' experiences, I say post up the pictures and let us have a go at judging grading veracity. I have bought some very high end pieces from CC and been enormously pleased by them, but can not really cite examples of circulated pieces.

No dealer or collector for that matter is perfect, but I've had nothing but good experiences when buying coins from CC before and after Colin's passing.

[argentumandcoins]

I think grading differs from day to day for most people, certainly on mid grade pieces anyway.

I often pull a coin from it's envelope prior to packing and think "How have I graded this at GVF, it's VF at best". Other days my thought is "Only GVF, I can hardly see a mark on it"

It's easier to grade high end I think as most dealers are reticent to give coins A UNC or UNC and will often pitch them at the GEF level, as we would rather lose a few quid than a potential repeat customer.

[Peter]

Unless I am certain I do not attempt to grade coins I put on Ebay.

I sometimes mention minimal wear or at least vf (too good to scrap 20C silver).

Who remembers John Minishul aka Farthing specialist...he had good almost Very good delightful GF ++++++++

Top bloke though who invariably sent me a letter with my coins.

In the days before internet you got a good idea.

With Colin I phoned an order for a coin and he told me I wouldn't like it.Now that is a dealer to whom I will return again and again.

[Peckris]

Unless I am certain I do not attempt to grade coins I put on Ebay.

I sometimes mention minimal wear or at least vf (too good to scrap 20C silver).

Who remembers John Minishul aka Farthing specialist...he had good almost Very good delightful GF ++++++++

Top bloke though who invariably sent me a letter with my coins.

In the days before internet you got a good idea.

With Colin I phoned an order for a coin and he told me I wouldn't like it.Now that is a dealer to whom I will return again and again.

Colin was very fair, even if you didn't agree 100% with his grading - and it was never more than half a grade out. Compare him with a certain dealer who always had a full page ad in Coin News : his grades were at least a full grade over-optimistic, sometimes more. However, like CC, he always gave prompt refunds if coins were returned; I just didn't like his unspoken "There will always be a few suckers or newbies" attitude which must have lain behind his grading. I rarely bought from him, never kept a single coin, unlike CC who I used many times over.