Bizarre Cupr0-Nickel Penny

[Red Riley]

Amongst a batch of unremarkable George VI halfcrowns that formed a part of a bulk lot I bought at auction yesterday, I found this oddity.

It is clearly made of cupro-nickel and at 11.2g is almost exactly the same weight as a florin (the florin I weighed as a control came in at 11.21g) but at almost 30mm. has a slightly larger diameter. The design clearly exceeds the size of the flan as the rim is not complete and at this point the coin seems thinner, almost certainly due to the lack of a rim.

And it looks very, very genuine.

I would be interested in members' views.

[SionGilbey]

It's probably the right die on the wrong planchet - however which coin's planchet is this?

[SionGilbey]

wrong coin collecting term there, i meant flan not planchet.

[Peter]

Amongst a batch of unremarkable George VI halfcrowns that formed a part of a bulk lot I bought at auction yesterday, I found this oddity.

It is clearly made of cupro-nickel and at 11.2g is almost exactly the same weight as a florin (the florin I weighed as a control came in at 11.21g) but at almost 30mm. has a slightly larger diameter. The design clearly exceeds the size of the flan as the rim is not complete and at this point the coin seems thinner, almost certainly due to the lack of a rim.

And it looks very, very genuine.

I would be interested in members' views.

It is a cracking strike.

Get it slabbed and put it on US ebay

Edited February 10, 2011 by Peter

[1949threepence]

Amongst a batch of unremarkable George VI halfcrowns that formed a part of a bulk lot I bought at auction yesterday, I found this oddity.

It is clearly made of cupro-nickel and at 11.2g is almost exactly the same weight as a florin (the florin I weighed as a control came in at 11.21g) but at almost 30mm. has a slightly larger diameter. The design clearly exceeds the size of the flan as the rim is not complete and at this point the coin seems thinner, almost certainly due to the lack of a rim.

And it looks very, very genuine.

I would be interested in members' views.

Hmmm, very unusual piece. Wonder how precisely it happened, and what happened to it after striking.

I'd keep it as a curio.

[azda]

I believe there was 1 similar in the workman sale Part 2?

[Peckris]

1967 seems the likeliest date for penny curios - probably because 1) they turned out so many 2) quality control may have slackened off a little with the main business relocating to Wales. Hence my 'clacks doesn't ring' example.

[£400 for a Penny ?]

And it looks very, very genuine.

I would be interested in members' views.

Very interested in this.

I picked up the 1929 potential 'off metal' strike from part 1 of the JW sale at CCC. It was listed as possibly cupro nickel, but most likely silver dipped after minting. That didn't sound right to me, so I snapped it up. It was estimated at £6, but I ended up paying £35 for it as it was very nice uncirculated.

My plan was to send it to CGS for verification, the only reason that I haven't done so, is that I feel these off metal strikes are an under explored area and I think it might be to easy for them to knock it back. Having discovered Robert Matthews, I think I will send it to him first, my gut instinct tells me that if it is CN, he is more likely to say so because he doesn't have to value it, if you catch my drift. He's also a metallurgist.

If it is a 1929 uncirculated CN penny, then it could be quite difficult to value and I'm sure my coin would fare better if supported by his report.

Your 1967 looks exactly the same to me, definitely an experimental strike on a slightly larger flan. These do pop up from time to time, there were several more GV strikes in part 2 of the JW sale as Az mentions, although they were worn examples on flans which were too small.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me they haven't been talked about much.

What they are, whether offical trial pieces or private experimentation during lunch break remains to be discussed, mine could be either, but I think the nature of your flan size surely indicates a mint worker messing about.

[VickySilver]

Yes, I have a number of these OMS (off metal strikes) that are not proofs and are of differing weights. Most are CuNi but some are nickel; if pure nickel or mostly so they are weakly magnetic but are NOT iron just because of that. The 1922 in JW2 was I believe nickel. I do not likely have the experience of , say, Rob, but have seen a few in recent years:

1922, 1936, 1965, 1966, 1967. I believe that a gold specimen or two is known of the the latter dates. Too bad you did not find one of these but then I suppose colour and density would have given it away.

[Rob]

It's always worth checking the weights of these pieces. The mint was not only using Cu-Ni, but was also experimenting with steel in the early years of Elizabeth II. Bronze is mostly copper, and the density of nickel means that there is not likely to be too much difference between these two metals (flan size variation not withstanding). Iron is over 10% less dense than either copper or nickel, so if the dimensions are ok as for a standard penny and it is underweight then check for magnetism. Nickel and iron both being magnetic should give a clue as to its composition.

I think the steel experiments predated this coin as Freeman records a pattern farthing (which was demonetised in 1960) and I have a steel halfcrown (halfpenny size), so the first half dozen years of the reign are more likely to apply but you can never rule anything out.

[Red Riley]

Yes, I have a number of these OMS (off metal strikes) that are not proofs and are of differing weights. Most are CuNi but some are nickel; if pure nickel or mostly so they are weakly magnetic but are NOT iron just because of that. The 1922 in JW2 was I believe nickel. I do not likely have the experience of , say, Rob, but have seen a few in recent years:

1922, 1936, 1965, 1966, 1967. I believe that a gold specimen or two is known of the the latter dates. Too bad you did not find one of these but then I suppose colour and density would have given it away.

I'll tell you exactly what I think it is. 1967 pennies went on being minted at Tower Hill until 1970 I believe. I also think that Llantrisant (known locally as 'the hole with the mint') came on stream in what, 1969 or 1970 and until at least 1971 was only producing the vast quantity of bronze required for decimalisation.

It therefore follows that Tower Hill was making everything else including the new 5, 10 and 50P coins. When the immediate rush had died down, the old mint would wind down and the workers at Tower Hill were faced with the choice of moving to South Wales or being made redundant.

It is a time-honoured British tradition that workers thrown on the dole in such a way have a slightly cavalier approach to their work. They don't sabotage things exactly, but they certainly don't work quite as their employers would like. I think we can propose up all sorts of theories about proofs and trial strikings etc. but I am sure that what happened was that a disgruntled employee simply threw a 10P blank into the penny hopper and this coin is the result. Peckris has already said that 1967 pennies are renowned for the quantity of strange errors that occur (including his famous 'clunking' penny) which would tend to back up my theory. So, nothing complicated just a worker, soon to be made redundant, who had a few too many beers one lunch time and indulged in a very minor act of vandalism.

Do I get 'Post of the Day' for that?

[Peter]

It could be fun to do a post of the day whether informative or funny....Dereck I like your reasoning but please tell me where your source of magic mushrooms are.

[Red Riley]

It could be fun to do a post of the day whether informative or funny....Dereck I like your reasoning but please tell me where your source of magic mushrooms are.

Im just a naturally jolly fellow.

[£400 for a Penny ?]

and the workers at Tower Hill were faced with the choice of moving to South Wales or being made redundant.

Can you imagine a coachload of relocating Londoners pitching up in Llantrisant, bleeding profusely from the nose, starving hungry, only to be met by some unintelligible individual, who, after lots of pointing and shouting breaks the news that there are no jellied eels ?

I'd have thrown a lot more than a 10p blank into the hopper, I can tell you....

[Gary D]

My 1937 3d is I believe on a nickel Irish 6d flan. Also here is my clacking penny by coinsidence also 1967, well it used to clack before I bent it.

1967 penny

Edited February 11, 2011 by Gary D

[1949threepence]

Yes, I have a number of these OMS (off metal strikes) that are not proofs and are of differing weights. Most are CuNi but some are nickel; if pure nickel or mostly so they are weakly magnetic but are NOT iron just because of that. The 1922 in JW2 was I believe nickel. I do not likely have the experience of , say, Rob, but have seen a few in recent years:

1922, 1936, 1965, 1966, 1967. I believe that a gold specimen or two is known of the the latter dates. Too bad you did not find one of these but then I suppose colour and density would have given it away.

I'll tell you exactly what I think it is. 1967 pennies went on being minted at Tower Hill until 1970 I believe. I also think that Llantrisant (known locally as 'the hole with the mint') came on stream in what, 1969 or 1970 and until at least 1971 was only producing the vast quantity of bronze required for decimalisation.

It therefore follows that Tower Hill was making everything else including the new 5, 10 and 50P coins. When the immediate rush had died down, the old mint would wind down and the workers at Tower Hill were faced with the choice of moving to South Wales or being made redundant.

It is a time-honoured British tradition that workers thrown on the dole in such a way have a slightly cavalier approach to their work. They don't sabotage things exactly, but they certainly don't work quite as their employers would like. I think we can propose up all sorts of theories about proofs and trial strikings etc. but I am sure that what happened was that a disgruntled employee simply threw a 10P blank into the penny hopper and this coin is the result. Peckris has already said that 1967 pennies are renowned for the quantity of strange errors that occur (including his famous 'clunking' penny) which would tend to back up my theory. So, nothing complicated just a worker, soon to be made redundant, who had a few too many beers one lunch time and indulged in a very minor act of vandalism.

Do I get 'Post of the Day' for that?

Why not.

It's as good a theory as any, Derek. I think I'd have been pretty pissed off given the choice of staying in London but redundant, or moving to Llantrisant ~ the hole with the mint.

It probably was soon to be laid off workers, probably under minimal supervision, just messing about.

1967 though. At least there were plenty of jobs in those days.

[josie]

Good find.

Another info of UKGB mint and minting,I think there are loads of coins mint by UKGB for other country nice info.

[Bernie]

Amongst a batch of unremarkable George VI halfcrowns that formed a part of a bulk lot I bought at auction yesterday, I found this oddity.

It is clearly made of cupro-nickel and at 11.2g is almost exactly the same weight as a florin (the florin I weighed as a control came in at 11.21g) but at almost 30mm. has a slightly larger diameter. The design clearly exceeds the size of the flan as the rim is not complete and at this point the coin seems thinner, almost certainly due to the lack of a rim.

And it looks very, very genuine.

I would be interested in members' views.

Brilliant find!!

Struck on a two shilling planchet, must be worth at least £500

[argentumandcoins]

I was instructed to go to £1000 but sadly it was already sold

[Peckris]

Your 1967 looks exactly the same to me, definitely an experimental strike on a slightly larger flan. These do pop up from time to time, there were several more GV strikes in part 2 of the JW sale as Az mentions, although they were worn examples on flans which were too small.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me they haven't been talked about much.

One slight flaw in this - why would they need to experiment with £sd pennies as they were about to go out of fashion quicker than McFly songs? Looking at the off-centre nature of it, it looks like a penny struck on maybe a halfcrown blank. Carelessness rather than experiment.

I'll tell you exactly what I think it is. 1967 pennies went on being minted at Tower Hill until 1970 I believe. I also think that Llantrisant (known locally as 'the hole with the mint') came on stream in what, 1969 or 1970 and until at least 1971 was only producing the vast quantity of bronze required for decimalisation.

It therefore follows that Tower Hill was making everything else including the new 5, 10 and 50P coins. When the immediate rush had died down, the old mint would wind down and the workers at Tower Hill were faced with the choice of moving to South Wales or being made redundant.

It is a time-honoured British tradition that workers thrown on the dole in such a way have a slightly cavalier approach to their work. They don't sabotage things exactly, but they certainly don't work quite as their employers would like. I think we can propose up all sorts of theories about proofs and trial strikings etc. but I am sure that what happened was that a disgruntled employee simply threw a 10P blank into the penny hopper and this coin is the result. Peckris has already said that 1967 pennies are renowned for the quantity of strange errors that occur (including his famous 'clunking' penny) which would tend to back up my theory. So, nothing complicated just a worker, soon to be made redundant, who had a few too many beers one lunch time and indulged in a very minor act of vandalism.

That sounds exactly right, given the evidence, Watson

My 1937 3d is I believe on a nickel Irish 6d flan. Also here is my clacking penny by coinsidence also 1967, well it used to clack before I bent it.

1967 penny

Wow, there are other clacking 1967 pennies?? Good news! Perhaps it can be recognised as a variety. [rubs hands together]. Retirement here I come! Oh wait...

[Rob]

These 'clacking pennies'. Do you mean coins with a laminating flan? If so, these were quite common amongst the decimal patterns of the late 1850's when they were experimenting with metals other than copper. The problem has been ascribed to using excessive pressure when struck, though this should presumably also apply in 1920 and I haven't seen any signs of this effect on early .500 silver unless they were typically struck with too little pressure which often appears to be the case.

[Rob]

Amongst a batch of unremarkable George VI halfcrowns that formed a part of a bulk lot I bought at auction yesterday, I found this oddity.

It is clearly made of cupro-nickel and at 11.2g is almost exactly the same weight as a florin (the florin I weighed as a control came in at 11.21g) but at almost 30mm. has a slightly larger diameter. The design clearly exceeds the size of the flan as the rim is not complete and at this point the coin seems thinner, almost certainly due to the lack of a rim.

And it looks very, very genuine.

I would be interested in members' views.

Brilliant find!!

Struck on a two shilling planchet, must be worth at least £500

Seems a bit much for a wrong flan coin. My Eliz.II florin on an underwight flan (possibly a Burundi 10Fr) cost £1.79 (including postage).

[Gary D]

Amongst a batch of unremarkable George VI halfcrowns that formed a part of a bulk lot I bought at auction yesterday, I found this oddity.

It is clearly made of cupro-nickel and at 11.2g is almost exactly the same weight as a florin (the florin I weighed as a control came in at 11.21g) but at almost 30mm. has a slightly larger diameter. The design clearly exceeds the size of the flan as the rim is not complete and at this point the coin seems thinner, almost certainly due to the lack of a rim.

And it looks very, very genuine.

I would be interested in members' views.

Brilliant find!!

Struck on a two shilling planchet, must be worth at least £500

Seems a bit much for a wrong flan coin. My Eliz.II florin on an underwight flan (possibly a Burundi 10Fr) cost £1.79 (including postage).

Get it slabbed and it'll be worth at least £1000

[VickySilver]

I, for one like these off metal strikes but not too sure of values like that (1000). I got a 1936 CuNi penny recently for 50 euros...

[Hussulo]

It does look like a nice off metal/ wrong planchet error.

"I'd have thrown a lot more than a 10p blank into the hopper, I can tell you...."

Like this:

http://www.byersnc.com/11219829.html