3 Pence Hoard 1885 - 1919

[Citizen H]

Hello All,

Today Ive moved away from my collection and thought Id show and tell some of my Grandfathers ....hoard.

the story is my mother passed them on to me when i was 20 something it was my inheritance as Brother and sister borrowed money off Mother and never paid it back!!!!!!. I've never borrowed from her.

The coins (grandfer's) were kept in a princess Mary's 1914 Xmas Tin, I've no Idea How or Why he started keeping these coins, there's no explanation from the family and these would have been currency when he was around using them.... unless he kept them as savings when currency was changing and the silver content involved? 

I have catalogued the 3 pence and its probably better to show the hoard as one lot.... please shout out if any particular dates would like to be seen?

also here's the great debate. Do I consolidate with my coins or keep them separate and let the others deal with family history? Also.. what would be suggested as general value for a 3 pence? the grade is  good some much better others not so... it wouldn't be fair to ask to value each individually. and Thank you advance, Ive also add a photo of the man in question, Frank Norris, RGA.

1884,  1885, 1890, 1895 x2, 1896, 1897, 1899, 1900 x2, 1907, 1908, 1912 x2, 1913, 1914 x3, 1915 x2, 1916 x15, 1917 x5 1918 x7, 1919 x6, ......... Qty 53 in all.  All the very best Rgds "H" 

 

[Citizen H]

My Grandfather, 

 

[Paddy]

Nice collection!

I don't believe any of the dates indicated are special. I used to find that silver threepences sold fairly steadily on the market stall at about £1 each, so that is a reasonable valuation for your records. As to whether to break them out into your collection or not, I can hardly advise!

By the way, the Queen Mary box has value too. With none of the original contents they typically go £20 to £30 depending on condition.

[Citizen H]

48 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Nice collection!

I don't believe any of the dates indicated are special. I used to find that silver threepences sold fairly steadily on the market stall at about £1 each, so that is a reasonable valuation for your records. As to whether to break them out into your collection or not, I can hardly advise!

By the way, the Queen Mary box has value too. With none of the original contents they typically go £20 to £30 depending on condition.

its been a light bulb moment... I can use the duplicates and fill in the gaps so at least have a continues group of dates, or keep randomly buy coins and adding them to the hoard !?!??! why break the family habit?  🤣

[Fubar]

I would be surprised if the dates didn't mean something to your grandfather.
Kept in a Queen Mary tin and no date later than 1919. A full run from 1912 to 1919 may be significant.
Maybe change kept from his pay or even the profits from games of "Put & Take".
I have some collections like these and I wouldn't assign an indvidual value to each item in a collection. The value is in the group and possible explanations for its existence.

[Citizen H]

1 hour ago, Fubar said:

I would be surprised if the dates didn't mean something to your grandfather.
Kept in a Queen Mary tin and no date later than 1919. A full run from 1912 to 1919 may be significant.
Maybe change kept from his pay or even the profits from games of "Put & Take".
I have some collections like these and I wouldn't assign an indvidual value to each item in a collection. The value is in the group and possible explanations for its existence.

He had died before I was born, I've managed to gather up all his army photos and research, His military service was from 1913 up until 1920 when he was at School of Gunnery  Shoeburyness, it was experimental cannons being fired. when the army finish and he was demobbed... when his medals arrived home he opened the and threw them on the fire in disgust... I'm now 58 and so feel the need to preserve his history in case it gets forgotten.    

[Flash]

If it helps, and I'm sure you know but the image shows he was a full Corporal in the Royal Artillery and he had been fighting for three years when it was taken or in total if the War had ended at that point.

Edited January 20 by Flash

[Sword]

A really nice story. If it were me, I would keep the 53 in the tin. The coins are in nice circulated condition and have already lived in the tin for a long time. It's already quite a good number and I probably would not want to add more to the tin. Any new ones can go into a separate container. You always have the option of mixing them later if you so wish. 

[Citizen H]

3 hours ago, Flash said:

If it helps, and I'm sure you know but the image shows he was a full Corporal in the Royal Artillery and he had been fighting for three years when it was taken or in total if the War had ended at that point.

Hello Flash, 

the shoulder title is S Of G school of gunnery he was posted there when it was experimental establishment, the cap badge is the Royal Artillery he was with the RGA section of the R, Another thing that gets missed however there's the wounded stripe, I have all of his brass inc his Gun Layer trade and Gunnery instructors badge, The Artillery Corporals were called Bombardier.... I have looked into his service and found lost of paperwork its only been this year that I found out about the Shoeburyness Essex experimental Establishment, sadly there's no records of this and by chance I was going over some old letters and the address caught my eye "S Of G" now this is dated 1920, his regt number and Shoeburyness... it all added to the jigsaw.      

[Flash]

Excellent, sorry should have said Bombardier but my eye-sights no where near good enough to have got the shoulder titles and wound stripe. Get all the details together as soon as you can it's very important. I was lucky enough to be able to talk to my Grand-dad about his service in the second World War although sadly he was completely paralysed with a stroke just before we go to the end.

[VickySilver]

Ah, interesting story there. My own father is going down to Alzheimer's and had a small box of coins and medals, mostly what I had given him over the years and now back to me. The best was NOT there, a medal from MACO (Medallic Art Co.) #113 by memory....I think "Escape" or something of that nature. I think I will slab the one gold Makarios of Cyprus sovereign with the rest to remain in box.

I would keep these in box and of the sentiment that none are especially rare bits numismatically but think you'll appreciate the connection to gramps...

[copper123]

Many old soldiers were upset by the way medals were given out for the first world war and it was quite common for the ord pvt class soldiers to put them down a grid or throw them in the rubbish as many had seen their comrades killed heads blown off, guts all over the floor etc and many more suffered from PTSD which was often punished by putting them in front of a fireing squad thus leading to more PTSD from other ord soldiers, we behave a little better now thank god.

Many wanted little to do with the armed forces again and just threw themselves into family life , many never mentioned the war and just clammed up when it was mentioned.

The officer class was treated a lot better 

Edited January 22 by copper123

[Citizen H]

24 minutes ago, copper123 said:

Many old soldiers were upset by the way medals were given out for the first world war and it was quite common for the ord pvt class soldiers to put them down a grid or throw them in the rubbish as many had seen their comrades killed heads blown off, guts all over the floor etc and many more suffered from PTSD which was often punished by putting them in front of a fireing squad thus leading to more PTSD from other ord soldiers, we behave a little better now thank god.

Many wanted little to do with the armed forces again and just threw themselves into family life , many never mentioned the war and just clammed up when it was mentioned.

The officer class was treated a lot better 

I was given my Grandfathers brass badges I guess I was 10, in my 20's I rediscovered them and kept searching, pre computers.. The RA Museum told me the file to look at and spent a whole day at the public records office as the day was closing I was 3 pages away from finding the war diary entry with his name written as wounded. what a day when I was able to show my mother. It also kick started collection medals from the WW1 and the researching of them. I was also able to work with the commonwealth war graves commission as 2 medal receivers were kill in action but wasn't mentioned... you have to provide information evidence etc to have the names added it was very rewarding in knowing It wasn't just collection...    

       

[copper123]

Just as a matter of interest an ord soldiers pay was around a shilling a day which meant a days pay was four of these little coins .

Few soldiers took their full pay with most signing it over to their mother to save up for them when they came home

[Citizen H]

58 minutes ago, copper123 said:

Just as a matter of interest an ord soldiers pay was around a shilling a day which meant a days pay was four of these little coins .

Few soldiers took their full pay with most signing it over to their mother to save up for them when they came home

 

Ah Yes Grandad was on 2s 3d, 

Royal Artillery
	Horse, Field and Mountain Artillery	Garrison Artillery
Master Gunner 1st Class	–	6s 0d
Master Gunner 2nd Class	–	5s 8d
Sergeant-Major	*5s 10d	5s 10d
Master Gunner 3rd Class	–	4s 6d
Quartermaster-Sergeant	*4s 2d	4s 2d
Battery Sergeant-Major or Battery Quartermaster-Sergeant	*4s 2d	4s 2d
Company Sergeant-Major	–	4s 0d
Company Quartermaster-Sergeant	–	3s 9d
Sergeant	*3s 2d	3s 2d
Corporal	*2s 6d	2s 6d
Bombardier	*2s 3d	2s 3d
Gunner	**1s 2.5d	1s 2.5d
Driver	***1s 2.5d	1s 2.5d
additional proficiency pay is payable if the soldier fulfils certain conditions as to service and qualification: rates 3d or 6d per day, according to proficiency.
* plus 2d for Horse Artillery ** plus 1.5d for Horse Artillery ***plus 0.5d for Horse Artillery

[Peckris 2]

On 1/22/2025 at 7:29 PM, copper123 said:

Just as a matter of interest an ord soldiers pay was around a shilling a day which meant a days pay was four of these little coins .

Few soldiers took their full pay with most signing it over to their mother to save up for them when they came home

That reminds me of the reason pewter beer tankards have glass bottoms. It was so drinkers could spot the “king’s shilling” in the bottom of the drink they'd been bought by the press gang - they could then refuse the drink and avoid being press ganged into the navy.

Edited January 24 by Peckris 2

[copper123]

14 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

That reminds me of the reason pewter beer tankards have glass bottoms. It was so drinkers could spot the “king’s shilling” in the bottom of the drink they'd been bought by the press gang - they could then refuse the drink and avoid being press ganged into the navy.

yes that was the navy only and was used in the 1790's when there was a distinct shortage of silver in circulation trouble was the navy ended up mainly staffed by tramps and drunkards 

[Citizen H]

So the time has moved on with the Hoard of 3 pence's.... from out of the 53 I found 21 are in respectable condition,  interesting exercise and learning curve has been the grading process, having 6 of the same dated coin in the palm, remove ones that are gashed etc, turn over an compare portrait decide which is least rubbed, reject others and may the best man win and remains in the collection, now in date order in a folder it also illustrated I don't think it was ever intended as a collection, theses have been passed to me and do as you see fit.... so... why not fill in the gaps and pass on something respectable for the next generation.. the road to be taking.

        

[Citizen H]

ahhhhh! this one also need to be explained... I found this one whilst sorting through the 3 pence's ...is this a stamp issue from the mint? the obverse seems fine apart from the area by the GE on the George ... be really interested to know why. cheers "H" 

Edited March 27 by Citizen H

[Sylvester]

This is a die clash.

Basically it stems from a flaw in the design of George V's coinage. The king's head was quite large in profile and of high enough relief to mean that when the coins were struck, the metal of the blank would be pulled into the obverse side more than the reverse, leaving a ghost impression of the obverse on the reverse. The dies have thus clashed, it's also known as ghosting.

It's very evident on all George V coinage from 1911-1927, it occurs on all denominations from Sovereign down to farthing. They solved the issue by making George V's head smaller from 1927 onwards.

[Citizen H]

3 hours ago, Sylvester said:

This is a die clash.

Basically it stems from a flaw in the design of George V's coinage. The king's head was quite large in profile and of high enough relief to mean that when the coins were struck, the metal of the blank would be pulled into the obverse side more than the reverse, leaving a ghost impression of the obverse on the reverse. The dies have thus clashed, it's also known as ghosting.

It's very evident on all George V coinage from 1911-1927, it occurs on all denominations from Sovereign down to farthing. They solved the issue by making George V's head smaller from 1927 onwards.

Awesome & concise explanation as to why.... fascinating history as to how things occur.... Many thanks Sylvester     

[blakeyboy]

11 hours ago, Citizen H said:

Awesome & concise explanation as to why.... fascinating history as to how things occur.... Many thanks Sylvester     

Agreed, but if you hadn't mentioned die clashing.

If a blank isn't between the dies when they come together, they clash, and leave impressions of each other on each other.

The results  usually, as would be expected, show as sharp lines etc- have a look at early bronze pennies of Victoria.

Ghosting, by contrast, isn't the result of damage to the dies, and is nebulous and vague, as you would expect. Have a look at  early George V pennies.

[Rob]

3 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Agreed, but if you hadn't mentioned die clashing.

If a blank isn't between the dies when they come together, they clash, and leave impressions of each other on each other.

The results  usually, as would be expected, show as sharp lines etc- have a look at early bronze pennies of Victoria.

Ghosting, by contrast, isn't the result of damage to the dies, and is nebulous and vague, as you would expect. Have a look at  early George V pennies.

I concur. Die clash results in a sharp reverse image. see below where Victoria's chin and nose leads up from the knee, and the bun is seen behind Britannia's right shoulder.

Ghosting by contrast is due to the relief being too high for the amount of metal available to fill the gaps. If the available metal goes towards the obverse,  the effect is seen clearly on the reverse which has more blank areas in the field, though can also result in a weak portrait compared to the reverse detail. For another example of ghosting, see the William I PAXS penny in the Norman thread where the high relief of the King's arm at the base of the obverse results in a weak legend from 6 - 9 o'clock on the reverse. 

[Sylvester]

I stand corrected! I am no expert on errors, it was never a speciality of mine.

[terrysoldpennies]

I thought these two coins would be good examples of what Rob was saying  .          Here's a really clear example of a die clash image being transferred onto the reverse side , Note how sharp the outline of the queens  head is right around Britannia .

But on the George v coin below which shows extreme ghosting, the outline is softer and is formed by a slight depression forming the outline of the kings head,  caused as Rob say's by the flow of metal .