penny Unusual 1873 Penny

[MATTGBC]

I have this 1873 penny in my collection. It has some unusual elements:

• Raised marks/lines either side of Victoria's neck on the obverse
• a raised line between the shield and lighthouse on the reverse

 

Does anyone know what may cause these markings? I suspect it is possibly double struck or made from old dies but I am by no means certain. 

 

Would appreciate any input or opinions

 

Thanks in advance

 

[Old Money]

Clashed dies. The Striking surfaces have come together without the planchet (Bronze blank) in place, the raised portions have been struck onto the opposing die and resulted in the features described.

The line between the lighthouse and Britt's  hand is Vicks cleavage line, a faint outline can be seen of Vicks face just above.

The other lines described are the folds in drapery

[MATTGBC]

26 minutes ago, Old Money said:

Clashed dies. The Striking surfaces have come together without the planchet (Bronze blank) in place, the raised portions have been struck onto the opposing die and resulted in the features described.

The line between the lighthouse and Britt's  hand is Vicks cleavage line, a faint outline can be seen of Vicks face just above.

The other lines described are the folds in drapery

Fantastic : ) thankyou very much!

[Michael-Roo]

See also between Victoria's neck and ribbons for a mirror image of Britannia's drapery.

[secret santa]

This is found on many dates in the 1870s for some reason, caused by a clash of obverse/reverse dies.

[DrLarry]

43 minutes ago, secret santa said:

This is found on many dates in the 1870s for some reason, caused by a clash of obverse/reverse dies.

that is a beautiful example ...is this  the actual die clash or the reverse superimposed on an image of the the obverse?  The best similar is in an 1866 penny that sold recently on ebay where the letters could be easily read above the Queens head from the reverse .   That helps me personally a lot with my Pareidolia as many of you pointed out many of the images I saw were the result of subtleties of die clashes.  Still I am happy to have had that experience it made me analyse pattern so much it taught me to paint 

Edited November 17, 2022 by DrLarry

[Rob]

21 minutes ago, secret santa said:

This is found on many dates in the 1870s for some reason, caused by a clash of obverse/reverse dies.

Although there are examples of clashed dies in all reigns for milled coinage, the numbers really seem to increase in the Victorian era (possibly due to a large increase in production). But somewhat intriguingly, they drop off significantly in the 1880s. In fact, I can't remember seeing more than the occasional piece from the last 120 years or more. I wonder if this is connected to the refurbishment of the mint in 1882? At that point, the old Soho equipment installed in 1815 was replaced. So 30 years down the line, perhaps the mechanism for introducing the blank became temperamental? It would be useful to know when Boulton stopped making coin presses, as this may have had implications for repairs and replacement parts.

Quality example whatever.

[secret santa]

9 hours ago, DrLarry said:

is this  the actual die clash or the reverse superimposed on an image of the the obverse? 

I believe it is a superimposition although I can't be sure as I didn't record the origins of the picture.

[1949threepence]

As others have said, typical clashed die marks. Those at the front of Victoria's neck are especially common.

[DrLarry]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

I believe it is a superimposition although I can't be sure as I didn't record the origins of the picture.

yes it looks to be   I think it would be better well known if that dramatic nice though to see it like that 

[alfnail]

Yes, superimposition, here are my originals for reference

[alfnail]

The same clashing also happens on Victorian coppers. This mis-lead many collectors into thinking that some pennies had a ribbon behind Victoria's neck.

My small Predecimal icon demonstrates, but here is the full picture for reference.

[alfnail]

Superimposition is often a useful tool for explaining certain features, e.g. on this 1859 penny:-

 

[alfnail]

or these reverse marks on an 1860 F16:-

[alfnail]

no one expects the Super Imposition!!

[DrLarry]

6 hours ago, alfnail said:

The same clashing also happens on Victorian coppers. This mis-lead many collectors into thinking that some pennies had a ribbon behind Victoria's neck.

My small Predecimal icon demonstrates, but here is the full picture for reference.

Yes but then it looks so convincing , the "ribbons" appear to hang perfectly and it was not uncommon as a style in the period to have the ribbons hanging so an easy mistake to make 

[Peckris 2]

22 hours ago, Rob said:

Although there are examples of clashed dies in all reigns for milled coinage, the numbers really seem to increase in the Victorian era (possibly due to a large increase in production). But somewhat intriguingly, they drop off significantly in the 1880s. In fact, I can't remember seeing more than the occasional piece from the last 120 years or more. I wonder if this is connected to the refurbishment of the mint in 1882? At that point, the old Soho equipment installed in 1815 was replaced. So 30 years down the line, perhaps the mechanism for introducing the blank became temperamental? It would be useful to know when Boulton stopped making coin presses, as this may have had implications for repairs and replacement parts.

Quality example whatever.

Yes I think that's the reason. It wasn't merely "refurbishment", it was total modernisation, i.e. the replacement of the steam powered presses with electrical ones. This possibly means that the 1882 "no H" London penny was the first issue on the new presses?