TOY COINS

[DrLarry]

possible 4th small colons no dot after 9 and no dot after WALES (D) 

 

actually I just found a fifth version in the set that contained the ALBERT without the Prince 

This new one is quite a departure the PRINCE on one side the OF WALES on another,  this was found in the ALBERT without PRINCE so if the PRINCELESS version was before ALBERT was made Prince Consort perhaps these are the earliest ones ?  

Edited November 29, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

it is such a useful exercise doing this and posting the images because it is so much easier to compare the similarity and the differences in this tiny characters even under the microscope the brain cannot look so easily at all the same time .  So thanks for the chance to add  new varieties to this great book  by David de Sola Rogers printed by Galata Books in 1990  such a nice things to be able to do on cold evenings :  it's also so astonishingly expensive so perhaps this will get more people interested.  BUT YOU NEED A MICROSCOPE

Edited November 29, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

yes it does seem that all of the medalets in the "PRINCE less" set are different The portrait of Victoria is much more finely cut than all the others  (below) she appears younger 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:55 PM, DrLarry said:

  There appear to be 3 different heads of Queen Victoria Moore may well have cut these different dies for each box variation.  The Size of the queens Head varies in size, one has no colons after REG :one has one Colon dot and a third is typical two colons after REG : The reverse also has differences in the punctuation after each line.  the beading is different some seem to have defined beans others have teeth some have nothing at all.  On one the BUN is enlarged and has an R over an R in REG. this portrait is much larger and the diamonds in the crown much larger 

for comparison  The one from the PRINCE less set make then 4 dies for the Queens Head 

Edited November 29, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

I suppose that is the Joy of studying an areas of so little interest you get to make new discoveries every day ....and it makes me feel GREAT 

[DrLarry]

Three new unlisted versions of Princess Helena,  The one listed in Rogers #276 seems to have HELENA written in very small script .  On the three here plus the one in the "PRInce less " set there are four different portrait types all with larger lettering so we must assume that different sets were made up at different times perhaps for each issue. The most obvious re design in the third is the additional hair at the back  with an unbarred A.  The youngest again is in #3 which shows the lower part of the face typically compressed in the younger head. there are variation in script and position 

1. (A) 

2.(B))                  3.(C)

Edited November 29, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

the reverses subtle differences in the Beading , with no punctuation in the lower two in the date yet a point after HELENA in the third , obviously someone got the date wrong in the one from the "PRINCE less " set as a 3 has been used instead of a 5 in the date no point (dot) between a second possible error may have been to put 1848 instead of 1846 in the birth year 

 1. (A)  

2 (B)  3. (C)

Edited November 29, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

I mentioned the other day a wonderful piece of good luck I purchased by complete accident a "smugglers" two pence from the US inside was a set of these little medalettes.  Both the PRINCE less " set and this one came from the US.  That is not to say that is where they started but looking at them today both seem to have this unlisted PRINCE ........OF WALES type.  likely they are from two different sets as one is uncirculated the other worn .  It is strange that they should all be this type possibly suggesting maybe export ? 

[DrLarry]

PRINCESS ALICE  :  I have three possible additions to ROGERS #274 .  There appear to be three portraits for the obverse and 3  reverses .  One is struck medal style the other coin style.  On one of the reverses a date error has occurred and instead of APRIL 25 1843 it reads APRIL 23 5 over 3 1843 

 

The three obverses seem to suggest changes perhaps ageing of the children the face elongates and the nose becomes more prominent as does the chin.  The back of the head has several additional curls and the hair longer.  The long haired version "the YOUNGER HEAD" has an unbarred A in ALICE the nose points between the C and the E the "older HEAD" the nose points higher to the E .  The older head is struck coin the younger head struck medal )in one) the other is coin. The older head has the 5 over the 3 . A third reverse is found on the "PRINCE LESS" set larger legend and possibly even younger head 

Could we surmise that the remodelling of these heads was done each year of issue as the children aged?

 

this is from the PRINCE less set

young headold head

 the medal and the coin reverse setting and the princeless reverse larger script and arced ALICE    

5 over 3normal italic date 

 a third reverse 

Edited November 30, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

Princess Louisa Born March 18th 1848 

The three I have do not show a great deal of difference on the obverse , however the reverse do show some differences.  Now it maybe that the one listed in Rogers #277 does in truth show this feature or it may be that this is an intermediate run after the date was corrected.  Rogers notes that an error date of the 19th of march exists and I have just seen that the PRINCELESS set contains such a date (which came a pleasant surprise to me 5 seconds ago shown below) #277a , mine show an 18th march and a second an 8 over a 9  and on both the date is 1848 (although both of my 8 over 9's also have the same error on the 8 of 48 which might suggest the 1849 existed first and was corrected by the 8 in subsequent dies. A second error type exists #277b with 1849 as the birth year.  

I have argued that the PRINCESS set is earlier so perhaps the error was made and then corrected with an 8 over 9 and or the 18th date was a third issue. Also the position of the head in this set is different with the nose  pointing to the I whereas the other point to the U 

 

 the 19th

 19th error #277a

8 over 9  normal 18 

 8 over 9 in year

Edited November 30, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

The main hazard of dealing with and identifying  toy coins is the size, so it unsurprising that variations were missed in the publication in 1990.  The expansion of this section alone increases the number of variants by at least a factor of 3 often 4 for each number assigned to it by Rogers.  Does it matter? well I hope that by looking something new is being discovered and sometimes things shock me and I discover things under my own nose I have missed.  As Rogers remarks there are a number of punctuation difference reported presumably not seen by him but  there is a wide variation in the modelling and layout.  He also wisely adds ""Others will probably be found". Rogers 1990 Galata Pub. page 46

 

I find it fascinating that one set the PRINCE less set shows such variation along with the ones found also in the USA hidden inside the smugglers coin.  

[DrLarry]

LAUER Coins   When I First discovered one of these time replicas 6 years ago  I was at first surprised by the excellence of the design and then fascinated.  So I began a 5 year journey of discovery ( sounds like the opening of star trek) to find as many as I could.  I still cannot find a great deal more on the Factory of L CH Lauer in Germany and even though I have searched in the german pages of E Bay little or nothing much comes up.  I assume Nurnberg Germany must have been a little like Birmingham was in the Victorian periods turning out small metal objects.   Does anyone know of any research other than that mentioned in Rogers?

Edited December 3, 2022 by DrLarry

[Rob]

The Lauer factory was flattened by the RAF and as far as I'm aware the records lost

[copper123]

9 hours ago, Rob said:

The Lauer factory was flattened by the RAF and as far as I'm aware the records lost

understandable but a pity

[DrLarry]

10 hours ago, Rob said:

The Lauer factory was flattened by the RAF and as far as I'm aware the records lost

I did not know that.  I saw on a couple of websites that they were still making pretty poor quality tokens into the 1930's.  The Victorian ones were by far the best and the "special relationship" between Britain and Germany must have made selling to the UK market much easier.   I often ( well not that often) come across small bags filled with various denominations all of the same grade and wondered if the making up of the boxes took place at the agents and shops? I am sure you avid collectors of real coins would know more about the process but I have to assume they used some kind of reduction machine to cut the dies? I have heard you guys mention that by the 1880's the royal mint used them.  I think I have seen one in action in an old film from the 1920's showing the method of transferring from a large plaster model to a smaller dimension for the positive impression which is then reversed for the die. 

[DrLarry]

2 hours ago, copper123 said:

understandable but a pity

it is always a loss when records disappear in disasters natural or otherwise  just leads to silly old fools like me making speculatory statements LOL 

[copper123]

7 hours ago, DrLarry said:

I did not know that.  I saw on a couple of websites that they were still making pretty poor quality tokens into the 1930's.  The Victorian ones were by far the best and the "special relationship" between Britain and Germany must have made selling to the UK market much easier.   I often ( well not that often) come across small bags filled with various denominations all of the same grade and wondered if the making up of the boxes took place at the agents and shops? I am sure you avid collectors of real coins would know more about the process but I have to assume they used some kind of reduction machine to cut the dies? I have heard you guys mention that by the 1880's the royal mint used them.  I think I have seen one in action in an old film from the 1920's showing the method of transferring from a large plaster model to a smaller dimension for the positive impression which is then reversed for the die. 

I have seen a couple of george v 1911 coins I think a shilling was one of them , they are pretty rare , I would certainly love to have a couple , soon afer 1911 the climate changed for german firms selling to the uk and never really recovered

[DrLarry]

39 minutes ago, copper123 said:

I have seen a couple of george v 1911 coins I think a shilling was one of them , they are pretty rare , I would certainly love to have a couple , soon afer 1911 the climate changed for german firms selling to the uk and never really recovered

there was a seller in Serbia selling a few  ut they were $50 each   I found one a year or so back but I would like a set too but I can wait LOL  

[DrLarry]

YOUNG HEAD SOVEREIGN strangely I seem to have more of the rare unreeded variety #40c one type has COUNTER in exergue #400 and 400a. reeded.  The second type have NURNBERG in exergue #401 I dont have either of these so please list if you have.  The a third variety with the date 1887 in exergue.  I also do not have the "gold" varieties of the shield sovereign but strangely seem to have one unlisted in Rogers.  Similar to #403 but strangely it is SILVER.  So I am looking for #403 and 404

 

#400a

 #400c plain edge

Edited December 5, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

17 hours ago, DrLarry said:

there was a seller in Serbia selling a few  ut they were $50 each   I found one a year or so back but I would like a set too but I can wait LOL  

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

403 silver ...unlisted in Rogers maybe unique 

Edited December 5, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

the HALF SOVEREIGN # 405 b  plain edge and 406 reeded edge

Edited December 5, 2022 by DrLarry

[DrLarry]

HALF SOVEREIGN  #406 Flaw on the O reads SCVEREIGN 

Edited December 5, 2022 by DrLarry

[copper123]

Sorry but I could not justify paying around £40 for one of those george v coins they are simply a bit poor for that sort of money , about £12 might be right , I surpose they are really rare though.

[copper123]

Will have a look through my collection and see if i can find anything interesting and put it on next week , going to birmingham will take up most of sunday