Is the given letter or number to a gap or a tooth?

[1949threepence]

Does anyone else send themselves boggle eyed trying to tell the difference, and arriving at different conclusions when looking at the same coin at separate times, or is it just me?

[secret santa]

Yes - which is why I raised a topic on 1858 large & small date pennies - I was finding it hard to tell the difference when looking at a single coin in hand.

You are not alone....................

[Rob]

Lighting has a huge effect on your perception. If you are accustomed to lighting from the top, then if done from the bottom, the relief detail often appears incuse until your brain has adjusted. Needless to say, that shifts the teeth half a position.

[1949threepence]

You can also be totally fooled by the photo, which can distort the true appearance. A few weeks ago I bought what I thought - was indeed convinced - from the photo, was a 1908, 164A. Only very cheap, fortunately. But when in hand and through a loupe, I could quite clearly see that it was a mere 164.   

Definitely the same coin as other indicators matched. 

[blakeyboy]

I now think I've done that with a 1911 penny this week.

Done it before on a 1909- the picture was definitely showing '1' over the tooth.

Not when it turned up. Same coin, different lighting.....

[1949threepence]

6 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

I now think I've done that with a 1911 penny this week.

Done it before on a 1909- the picture was definitely showing '1' over the tooth.

Not when it turned up. Same coin, different lighting.....

Indeed. It's not a true optical illusion or deliberate trick photography. It's us reading the picture wrongly. 

Usually when you re-examine, there's some other context detail you've overlooked. Such as there's one less tooth between the previous letter and the one you're looking at, than on the real thing. 

You have to check, double check and triple check.    

The 1909 one is difficult, as depending on how you look at it, the base of the one can be over a tooth or over a gap. Although on the real deal, there seems to be a marginally larger space between teeth, and the base of the one is literally smack over the tooth. I would say with that one, unless it's absolutely obvious at first glance under magnification, then it isn't a 169. The hollow neck is really difficult though, IMO. 

 

[Mr T]

Yes. Very annoying when the only thing you have to go on is denticle alignment.

[1949threepence]

10 hours ago, Mr T said:

Yes. Very annoying when the only thing you have to go on is denticle alignment.

Precisely. For instance, from being in hand I know that the first picture below is a F160, and the second a F161. But I'm not convinced from the pic in this e bay link that the coin is a 160 as stated by the vendor. The non enlarged pic appears to suggest that it is, but once enlarged it looks like the upright E of penny is to a tooth, as per a 161, and not to a gap.

  

Edited May 26, 2019 by 1949threepence

[mrbadexample]

4 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Precisely. For instance, from being in hand I know that the first picture below is a F160, and the second a F161. But I'm not convinced from the pic in this e bay link that the coin is a 160 as stated by the vendor. The non enlarged pic appears to suggest that it is, but once enlarged it looks like the upright E of penny is to a tooth, as per a 161, and not to a gap.

  

Looks like a 161 to me too.

[terrysoldpennies]

There seems to be other differences . in the picture below, the top two are both F160s, one with a small o the other the large O and with both of these the 5 is almost centred over the tooth , also both have a normal length tail to the 9.  Whereas on the F161 [the bottom date of the three] the 5 is centred over the gap between the teeth, and seems to have a  9  with a shorter tail.

Edited May 27, 2019 by terrysoldpennies

[Peckris 2]

I think the position of the 5 is significant. But not the tail of the 9 which can be affected by die wear.

[1949threepence]

14 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

There seems to be other differences . in the picture below, the top two are both F160s, one with a small o the other the large O and with both of these the 5 is almost centred over the tooth , also both have a normal length tail to the 9.  Whereas on the F161 [the bottom date of the three] the 5 is centred over the gap between the teeth, and seems to have a  9  with a shorter tail.

Thanks Terry. Valuable knowledge. 

[1949threepence]

What do you reckon chaps, P to a tooth or gap? I come to a different conclusion every time I look 

Thanks.

 

[Paddy]

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

What do you reckon chaps, P to a tooth or gap? I come to a different conclusion every time I look 

Thanks.

 

As you know, varieties are not my speciality, but I would say P is to a tooth - just to the left of centre on it, which seems to match with the example on the headsntails14 website. First one of date is also directly over a tooth, so I think this makes it Freeman Reverse A?

[jelida]

Yes, the P is to a tooth. The narrower rim also confirms reverse A.

Jerry

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

6 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

What do you reckon chaps, P to a tooth or gap? I come to a different conclusion every time I look 

Thanks.

 

I would say P of PENNY to a tooth....

As stated by many, lighting, angle, etc all conspire to confuse....... it's happened many times to me..... sometimes I'll vacillate for days, counting denticles, checking leaves, other key points, etc. And still I might not be overly confident in my final  assessment .

To be perfectly candid, sometimes you can never be sure without the coin in hand. ..

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Bronze & Copper Collector

[1949threepence]

Thanks gents, much appreciated. 

[secret santa]

Unlike politicians, the teeth never lie - reverse A

[Peckris 2]

11 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

What do you reckon chaps, P to a tooth or gap? I come to a different conclusion every time I look 

Thanks.

 

Difficult to say about the pointing, but I can see at a glance that it's the earlier reverse, 1911-1913.