Halfpenny ID check

[Martinminerva]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:02 PM, Zo Arms said:

Not in hand yet. Christmas post delays etc. An unfair question I'll admit. Photos when it arrives.

I take it that it wasn't then... ☹️

[Martinminerva]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:24 PM, Zo Arms said:

Am I seeing an F here? 1861.

I have found one of these too! It's an 1861 6+G, and can confirm it's actually an E over the B. On my specimen below, there is a bit of a die crack to the left of the E/B and some damage to the beads above. Wonder if that's connected to the repair? Worth recording on your Viccy halfpennies obverses page, Richard? @secret santa Feel free to use the pictures!

 

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by Martinminerva

[secret santa]

Will do !

[Bernie]

Haven't seen this error before, good finds! I suspect that these two coins maybe from different dies. One picture indicates the leg of R loop is inline with the serif of the I. the other coin, the loop of the R points above the serif of the I. This may be just an illusion that sometimes happens with digital photography, but full pictures of each obverse may confirm this one way or the other.

[Martinminerva]

15 minutes ago, Bernie said:

I suspect that these two coins maybe from different dies. One picture indicates the leg of R loop is inline with the serif of the I. the other coin, the loop of the R points above the serif of the I. This may be just an illusion that sometimes happens with digital photography, but full pictures of each obverse may confirm this one way or the other.

Good shout - I think you're right. Full obverses are already on the thread, the earlier one on page 22 and my one below the microscope enlargements, but I paste both in again here. The R you refer to has different degrees of rotation as can be seen by where the vertical points - on mine to a space, but on the original left of a bead. Keen eyed people might be able to spot other differences? So, wonder if it is two completely different dies, or just other subsequent repairs/alterations? What would be the chances of exactly the same E over B twice? The die crack on mine isn't on the original, so suggests mine is a later strike than the original if it is one die that has had other work done on it?

 

[jelida]

I have to say that given that there appear to be two obverse dies, the original does seem to be F over B and the latest an E over B.  Richard, you have your work cut out.🧐

Jerry

[mrbadexample]

11 hours ago, jelida said:

I have to say that given that there appear to be two obverse dies, the original does seem to be F over B and the latest an E over B.  Richard, you have your work cut out.🧐

Jerry

I still favour the E/B based on the little pointy bit here: 

[jelida]

9 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

I still favour the E/B based on the little pointy bit here: 

Certainly it could be either, I don’t think the photos are definitive. A little but of gunge removal and closer images would help.

Jerry

[Bernie]

I could be wrong but the brown one appears to me as obverse 4 and the other obverse 6

[secret santa]

1 hour ago, Bernie said:

I could be wrong but the brown one appears to me as obverse 4 and the other obverse 6

The closeness of the V to the linear circle supports this.

[Martinminerva]

3 hours ago, Bernie said:

I could be wrong but the brown one appears to me as obverse 4 and the other obverse 6

I think you're both absolutely right. The original, brown one has minimal O of SOIT visible at the back of her truncation, but the redder one has the O near complete, so for me, yes, one is obverse 4 and one obverse 6. I suspect a rewrite of your half pennies page will be coming, Richard! So, two new discoveries rather than one! Whoever was on B repairing duty at the mint for these two dies was having a bad time!! 

Any more of either obverse out there in forum land? Check your 1861's everyone!

 

[Zo Arms]

Hi all.

It appears that I'm late to the party and the cleaners are just stacking the chairs and sweeping up.

Not much to add really.

I would agree with Bernie that mine is an obverse 4 and Martin's a 6.

The A pointing in Victoria is different due to rotation. As is the D of D:G: Martin's being extreme. Richard has mentioned the V of Victoria.

I think the R of BRITT on mine has been repunched, slightly rotated too.

Martin's strongly appears to be an E. Mine, I'm not sure. I can see Jon's reasoning for an E but I've always swayed to an F as Jerry says.

Give me an hour or so, and I'll see if I can do some better photos as I think there may be something going on under the B too.

Cracking find Martin.

[Peckris 2]

I agree that both appear to be E/B though  the lower limb of the E is harder to make out on the earlier picture. I can see someone mistaking a halfpenny-sized E for a B - especially with the serifs curving inward - but it's much harder to see someone mistaking an F for a B though it's not impossible of course!

[Kipster]

Can I just check if this looks like an 1853/2 please?

Ta.

[PWA 1967]

A clear picture to confirm ,it does look like one although may appear better under a microscope ,especially with some light.

 

Edited March 24, 2024 by PWA 1967

[Kipster]

Thanks Pete,

Will have a better look when office is back to normal

[Martinminerva]

3 hours ago, Zo Arms said:

I would agree with Bernie that mine is an obverse 4 and Martin's a 6.

The A pointing in Victoria is different due to rotation. As is the D of D:G: Martin's being extreme. Richard has mentioned the V of Victoria.

I think the R of BRITT on mine has been repunched, slightly rotated too.

 

Cracking find Martin.

Thanks, Bob. Just out of interest, what reverse is yours? On Richard's draft on his halfpenny page he (and I) assumed yours is a reverse G as mine is, but that was when we thought they were both the same obverse 6. Now we're sure yours is obverse 4, wonder if it's a different reverse too? Can you post a picture of the reverse?

 

[secret santa]

On 3/24/2024 at 10:38 PM, Martinminerva said:

Thanks, Bob. Just out of interest, what reverse is yours? On Richard's draft on his halfpenny page he (and I) assumed yours is a reverse G as mine is, but that was when we thought they were both the same obverse 6. Now we're sure yours is obverse 4, wonder if it's a different reverse too? Can you post a picture of the reverse?

Any updates yet, Bob ?

[Zo Arms]

7 hours ago, secret santa said:

Any updates yet, Bob ?

Just got in. Looking for it now.

[Zo Arms]

9 hours ago, secret santa said:

Any updates yet, Bob ?

Took a while to locate it.

Reverse G.

Die fill to the top of the E may be useful in finding another example.

[Raven Coins]

[Zo Arms]

3 hours ago, Raven Coins said:

Reverse E. Similar die fill.

Edited March 27, 2024 by Zo Arms
Additional

[Bernie]

3 hours ago, Raven Coins said:

Freeman 274, obverse 5 Reverse E

[Martinminerva]

8 hours ago, Raven Coins said:

Die fill to the E of Penny, yes, but different obv and rev combo (as Bernie says, this is a 5+E) to the E (or F) over B in BRIT pairs (4+G and 6+G respectively), and this one does not have that error. Suspect die fill (on any letter) is pretty common... What was being wondered is if there are more of the E over B 4+G and do they have the die fill?

 

 

 

[Zo Arms]

52 minutes ago, Martinminerva said:

Die fill to the E of Penny, yes, but different obv and rev combo (as Bernie says, this is a 5+E) to the E (or F) over B in BRIT pairs (4+G and 6+G respectively), and this one does not have that error. Suspect die fill (on any letter) is pretty common... What was being wondered is if there are more of the E over B 4+G and do they have the die fill?

 

 

 

Exactly as Martin says. I should have been more concise in response.

Apologies.