1853 Penny with Dot

[bhx7]

Hi All

Was looking through my coins today and noticed a dot on the obverse of my 1853 penny. It isn't the best specimen but its mine and I like it

It is between the I and A of GRATIA - GRATI.A

Is this a known error/die defect?

Thanks

Brian

[bhx7]

Sorry for the photo's they were done on my knee with my phone as the camera was out of charge. ( tried again to edit my post put can't!!!!!!!)

[Rob]

You should be able to. The edit button comes up to the left of multiquote, click on it and it takes you back to a reply box with the post to be edited within. The time limit is an hour or two for me, so don't know why you can't do it after 4 minutes?

[bhx7]

It has happened nearly everytime I have tried to edit one of my posts Rob, since I first joined the page. Most the time its fine as I don't have to edit, but if I have made an error or stupid mistake its just nice to be able to edit!

Edited November 28, 2015 by bhx7

[bhx7]

I can edit as long as its less than 1 min!!!!! Just tried it after that it takes me to the edit page then states I dont have permission.

Anyway back to the coin

Edited November 28, 2015 by bhx7

[Coinery]

There's a correlation between post numbers and the timescales for editing!

[Coinery]

Maybe a piece of crud damaged the die?

[Chingford]

It is sought after, but is not recorded as a variety,

In all probability just an indication that the die is starting to fail, other examples have the dot larger and irregular in shape

[bhx7]

Hi Chingford, thanks for that. So this is probably an early example of this fault. Have you a picture of a later variety. Thanks

[Chingford]

Both on large date Obv, smaller dot has a PT Rev and larger an OT Rev

[PWA 1967]

Well spotted Brian.

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Is there something up with the 5 in the date too?

[RLC35]

Is there something up with the 5 in the date too?

The 5 looks like it has a dent in it, from contact with something, or another coin.

[bhx7]

Definately a knock or error of some kind. Not sure if it is during minting or post mint. Will take a close up if I can get the light right.

[Nordle11]

Looks post, like Bob says it's probably a knock/dent from hitting something, we'll see from the closer pics though!

Edited November 30, 2015 by Nordle11

[bhx7]

You maybe right but here is a couple of close up images.

[bhx7]

Those images are really bad. hopefully this should be a bit better!

[Nutsaboutcoins]

Post mint damage?

[bhx7]

This is a much better image and I think shows as expected, probably post mint!

Edited November 30, 2015 by bhx7

[Nordle11]

It does look post mint, it certainly took a massive whack to that 5!

[alfnail]

I have an 1853PT with this dot, pictures attached. Having examined the additional date pictures which Brian has posted I believe that the obverse on my piece may have been struck from the exact same die as his. I will attach further close ups of the date and other features on my own coin in my next posting, to follow on immediately…...

[alfnail]

…..as can be seen there is a protrusion of an underneath 5 to the top left hand side. Additionally, the location of the numerals in relation to the border teeth differs from all the ‘Date Style A’ (italic 5) varieties documented by Gouby to date:-

http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/1853_penny.htm

My coin also has several minor legend repairs, the most noticeable being the first I of VICTORIA which is high in line, with a small protrusion of an underneath I at the base.

Please could I ask Brian to check to see whether his Ornamental Trident coin has these same features?

[bhx7]

…..as can be seen there is a protrusion of an underneath 5 to the top left hand side. Additionally, the location of the numerals in relation to the border teeth differs from all the ‘Date Style A’ (italic 5) varieties documented by Gouby to date:-

http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/1853_penny.htm

My coin also has several minor legend repairs, the most noticeable being the first I of VICTORIA which is high in line, with a small protrusion of an underneath I at the base.

Please could I ask Brian to check to see whether his Ornamental Trident coin has these same features?

Hi Alfnail

It seems there are definate similarities. The I of Victoria does have the exact same small protrusion as does the 5. I have done another photo which hopefully is a much better quality. As with most coin photography is a new animal for me to master.

Regards

Brian

[bhx7]

I did notice that the Reverse is different to yours, mine having the far colon after DEF :

[alfnail]

Thanks very much for getting back to me about this Brian. You have noted that your own coin is paired with an OT reverse, rather than a PT reverse like my own coin…….this is the interesting thing, please read on.

Now that you have confirmed your own coin has these identical and unusual obverse features I attach a close up of the ‘dot’ between the I and A of GRATIA. Under high magnification, but still not immediately obvious, it can be seen that there is a faint die flaw running underneath the A towards the bottom of the dot and then exiting at the top of the dot and proceeding all the way up to a border tooth (see the red arrows)

Bearing in mind that the deterioration of a die, and associated progress of a flaw, represents a timeline, and that we now know these dots appear on a single obverse which is paired with both an Ornamental Trident and Plain Trident (and in a year where the PT was first introduced), I think it would be of much interest to determine whether the PT preceded the OT when paired with this obverse……..or vice versa.

It is difficult to see without good close-ups whether your own piece also exhibits such flaws in these exact same locations? Whilst I believe there are very few decent examples of 1853PT paired with Gouby Style A Italic 5 obverse (Gouby Style C being far more common), may I ask whether any other member has an 1853 ‘dot’ coin, PT or OT, with these same date and legend features? If so, please could you report back on any findings regarding the state of the flaws through the dot?

P.S. I can add a couple of other close ups of additional unusual obverse features which are a trade mark for this particular die should any member feel that the date and high I in VICTORIA and insufficient to convince that it is the same obverse die which is paired with both an OT and PT reverse.