Hussulo

Sorry Peckris. I didn't mean to come across abnoctious or high and mighty. I'm sure there are a lot of things you guys know that I don't That's why its good to share. I have learnt a lot on forums over the years. Speaking of cartwheel lustre. I recently bought a coin on ebay. 1908 S Peso. It looked nice in the sellers picture. It was described as CH Unc. Received it today and it has been whizzed. What a shame another nice coin ruined.

That's the good thing about on line forums. They're a great place for discussion and sharing information/ knowledge and although we aren't always going to agree on every subject, discussion is healthy. I agree that most coins listed on ebay aren't truly Unc or BU. Sellers or owners sometimes like to believe their coins are a better grade then they actually are. Of course it usually takes an impartial viewer or buyer to point out that they aren't but this usually wont go down well with the owner or seller. Some sellers obviously over grade their coins on ebay hoping for more money. This is where knowledge is key. If you try to grade a coin accurately and pay what you are willing to and someone out bids you on a coin listed as Unc, but you only bid AU money on it, they're the ones that will lose out when they try and sell it on.

But Lustre IS NOT colour. If you dip or clean a toned coin back to a red colour it wont have lutre. I agree an Uncirculated BU coin should have lustre and colour but they are both different. The following statement is by Daniel Carr (moonilight mint http://www.moonlightmint.com/index.htm whom has designed and struck many coins and medals) luster is a product of two things : die wear, like you said, but also planchet expansion. Proof-finish coins are struck two or more times because the first strike raises the relief and causes planchet expansion (flow), while the second strike wipes out the flow lines (luster) and imparts the polished finish. I can take a fresh fully-polished die, stamp once with it, and there will be some flow lines visible if any planchet expansion occurs. I can take a freshly sand-blasted (matte) die, stamp once with it, and there will also be some flow lines visible if any planchet expansion occurs. After use, a die will develop luster on it's surface. That luster will transfer to coins struck by it. But if struck more than once, with the planchet expansion contained after the first strike, the second strike will REDUCE the cartwheel luster, even if the die face has cartwheel luster on it. So lustre is essentially flow lines and the reflection of light they produce. Edited to add: Here's pictures of his press (ex Denver mint). http://www.moonlightmint.com/artifacts.htm

and this is why a Morgan Silver Dollar can show "incomplete" hair depth over the ear area on the obverse and grade an MS-64 if the cheek area shows no wear. Incomplete hair may be due to a week strike as opposed to actual wear. When a coin wears down it tends to show wear in more then one area. If you see an area that has been struck weekly like the centre of the coin (hair above the ear), the opposite side (eagles chest) would also display a weak strike. A week strike still would be given a high grade by PCGS as they grade a coin by wear and not whether or not all the details are fully struck up. Morgans are basically the same design year after year but some years and mints are better struck then others.

Toning is nothing more than oxidation (just like steel rusting) of the metal on a coin. The metal chemically reacts with its environment, whether that is air, the envelope or holder it is in, or a coming in contact with a contaminant. Silver can tone through a spectrum of colours and eventually turns black. It is the presence of sulphur that facilitates this colour transformation. One of the most well known collectors of colourful rainbow Morgan Dollar (sunnywood) made up this chart: I'm not saying some of the colourful US coins we see aren't helped along the way chemically but it is interesting to see what is claimed is the stages of colour a coin goes through when toning colourful.

Thats always the way I understood it. You can imagine the tons of pressure when a coin is struck. The metal of the planchet flows into the spaces to fill it. Thats how we are obviously left with raised letters and devices. If you were to look at the field of a coin at microscopic level you would see flow lines. Looking at my picture imagine that you are looking at a dissected coins surface side on. The lustre of a coin is actually the reflection of the light on the field produced by these surfaces. Proofs are a different kettle of fish. Obviously proof refers to coin that has been produced using a specially prepared process. Talking about your standard mirror like proof surface. the planchets are prepared and polished as is the die. When the coin is struck with polished dies and struck multiple times the field of the coin is much smoother and reflects the light at a much more direct straight way which doesn't produce a lustre like cartwheel shine but more a mirrored reflection. Some coins appear proof like. They may have been amongst the first few coins struck by fresh dies. They will have a more mirrored surface as opposed to a lutrey surface. The main way you can tell a proof from a prooflike coin is because a proof will have sharper letters and design as well as edges. This is somewhat due to the fact that it has been struck several times and the flow of the metal has been pushed right up into the spaces of the die. Although red and lustre go hand in hand, because most copper/bronze coins having been freshly struck will be red. Not all red coins have lustre. If you take a toned circulated coin and cleaned it it would be red but won't have any lustre. Also you can get slightly toned coins with lustre (not red) showing through under the toning. If you take 1949threepence's avatar picture for instance. Although its toned you can still see some lustre shining through at 2 and 10 o'clock. Obviously the more a coin tones (which is basically a reaction which forms on the surface of the coin) the more the flow lines are covered and the more the lustre is lost. This theory is proven when a uncirculated toned coin is carefully dipped. Once the coin has been dipped the toning removed the flow lines are revealed and the coin then once again has lustre. If a coin is over dipped the dipping solution will remove the tops of the lines (which are microscopic) and smooth them out which also would destroy the lustre.

I've drawn a simple picture of how I have always believed lustre on a coin works and how its effected.

Could be a bit of grease on the 1 in the die, which once struck makes the 1 not as sharp.

There are still some nice coins to be had on ebay but it is buyer be ware. You do have to sift through a lot of not so good and over rated ones to find them though. Also I have decided to be tougher, if in future I receive a coin I am not happy with ie not as described I am going to start retuning them. I have seen me turn the odd blind eye in the past. I have seen several coins I have been watching being pulled of late as well. As a buyer this is quite annoying. One coin I was watching was in an auction format. I guess the seller wasn't happy with the price it was at with a couple of days to go and pulled it. He has now re-listed it at £650 or make an offer.

Also if it is the Godless Florin it should be Spink 3891 and not Spink 4012? I'm in no doubt the seller is genuine and the pictured coin is what you will receive but a couple of typos in the description. Nice coin though.

I could be wrong but I dont think bronze coins are supposed to turn this colour http://cgi.ebay.com/UK-BRITIAN-1899-Q-V-RAINBOW-TONED-BRONZE-WORLD-COIN-/390225800163?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5adb452be3

It does look like a man made shape as opposed to a bit of grit and does look like one of the dots in a colon. I think it is in a strange place for an identification mark. One possibility is a dropped dot. Like a dropped letter error. I don't know if you've heard of this but you can see more here: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=557 Once the dropped letter or dot was moved onto the surface (field)of the obverse die, bearing in mind it may contain metal filling, small shavings etc it would leave an imprint on the die after the next planchet was fed in and struck.

He's had 12 offers. I might make him an offer of £20 see what he says.

Okay but is the design of one side incuse? Like these: http://www.coinsgb.com/Error_Coins/Brockage.html or are both the bust's raised? My guess is it is two heads sides of coins joined together. Often called a magicians coins. Check the edge for a joining line using a magnifying glass.

Would need to see a picture. It could double struck, a brockage or post mint damage. Whats the other side of the coin like?

I've seen several at local Antiques fairs. Usually copies of US trade dollars. Non appear to be real silver and are way to light even if picked up in hand I'm not even sure if the "dealers" know what they are selling as they are pricing them at around the silver price of a coin that size (around an ounce). Either they know they are copies but believe them to be silver or the think they are genuine but only worth silver value.

Oh dear! My grandfather used to own a pub and he once got one in the till, he died in 1968 anybody want to buy it from me? From what I can see amongst the blurry photos (giveaway or what) this one looks quite nicely done - the date looks pretty good and the dirt etc on the obverse gives a nice 'real' feel to it. But if you are going to fake or replicate a 1933 penny in order to deceive, what's with the huge reverse border teeth? Looking at this, I'm assuming its one of the very nice recent replicas, which go for around £14.99 or so, and which has been dirtied up to look older. If so, then I guess the designer wanted to provide something good enough to look right in a collection, for those who want a date filler, yet didn't want to make them so good that they enter the food chain and genuinely deceive. Am I right, or does anyone have a different take on it? A fool and their money.. If you are going to pay £1200 for a bunch of coins with blurry pictures and no guarantee of them being genuine (or purchasing them from a dealer) only a story about inheriting them then I can't muster up much sympathy I'm afraid.

I agree with all the points made hear. You really need to do your homework when buying expensive or rare coins on ebay. If you buy from a reputable dealer and they have a good returns policy you should be covered. If buying from ebay and from abroad returning coins can become tricky especially when a certain time passes but everyone seems to expect to find bargains on ebay. The trouble is quite a few of the Chinese counterfeits are die struck nowadays and I've seen some 1763 shillings offered by sellers in China that appear to be very good quality. If they use genuine silver and get the weight of the planchet right they will be even harder to tell from the real thing especially to a non expert. The other point to consider is what if they use real silver to strike not so rare coins. Perhaps coins valued at £100. They might slip under the radar even easier as you wouldn't expect a provenance with such coins. Heres an apparently fake US one being discussed on a US coin forum: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280546338960&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp3984.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D280546338960%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 The winner probably thinks they have done great buying a multi thousand dollar coin for that price when in fact the coin would be worth $2ish. A lot of people are going to get there fingers burnt.

[quote name='HistoricCoinage' date='07 August 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1281204120' If that's what you get in your change up there, Hus, then I'm moving house!!!

A few more shots I took tonight.

PS it looks like there might be some nice colour on the obverse of that coin. I think I can make out some blues in the devices. Try a shot slightly angled (camera blow the coin at a lower angle) with the sunlight reflecting off the coin to try and capture the colour.

Your first attempt looks good John. I don't put it into macro, just shoot in Auto. Position it at any distance away from the coin lightly press the button and the camera will zoom in then once it has done so and stopped making a noise fully press the button to take the picture. I shoot a few free hand and it seems good to me unless I have very steady hands? The only option I tweak is to put the flash off.

I use Photoshop a lot, but didn't know about iPhoto. Thanks Peckris.

In the past I've had to modify the colour of images to get the picture of the coin to look like the sane as it does in hand. I don't believe in "juicing" an image to make a coin look better then it is. If you took a picture of a coin on a white background the background would always appear yellowish when you uploaded the picture onto the computer. I think it had something to do with the white balancing or lack of on my old camera With the my new Canon the image colour seems to be quite spot on straight away. PS if anyone is looking for a decent free photo software with a circle cropping tool you should try PhotoScape: My linkhttp://download.cnet.com/PhotoScape/3000-2192_4-10703122.html