Leaderboard

"The coin is slightly worn"

Non-penny expert jumping on bandwagon... Just seen this washer on eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1860-Pattern-Penny-Freeman-8B-B-b-Extremely-Rare/224354401060?hash=item343c907b24:g:37QAAOSw29xgK9~l I think not. I bet he saw the selling price of "The masked pennyman's" two genuine examples and has thought kerching... 🙂

Those sales were scandalous (for Hiram's family) but great for collectors. Individual items like this one were recognised by collectors and realised their true value but the bundles were often under-described and achieved less than their value. Hiram's lack of cataloguing contributed to this but make sure your inheritees don't get ripped off. Catalogue your coins !!!

IMO all coins benefit from not being slabbed . There are plenty more out there that think the same as well

Many thanks for this! I too carried out a similar exercise with the LC past sales’ list and, as you point out, the differences are spectacularly small for a phenomenal increase in final value. The way these coins wear and are struck is many, with the example I shared having a much better fringe and front hair band than many GEF examples, confusing the variables of strike, wear, and die condition, much more than usual. I think you’re right re eye-appeal in these middling to better grades, it’s the best guide in the end.

The next example is described as " few surface marks, otherwise extremely fine or better", sold for £1200 in Sept 2017.

I'd go with NEF

For those who have spent more time than I looking at these coins, what’s your thoughts on the level of contact marks for the grade? I realise these are chunky old coins that are seldom seen with good surfaces...However, are these ‘mechanical’ marks too much for you?

Yes I know 1967 penny , who cares they only made 600,000,000 of them. Well I came across a lot of ten mixed date pennies on a very poor out of focus picture, with only one coin that you could determine the date and that it was a missing sea example. I already had a 1966 example and have been looking for a 1967 for many years. and to my great surprise when the pennies arrived four of the five 1967s were missing sea types, so must have been stored away when new and have survived together for the past fifty four years. After having a good look at the 1967s and comparing them with the 1966 I noticed that all the 1967s not only had the missing sea but also had a much shorter plume and a missing back shoulder strap , whereas on the 1966 missing sea the strap is present and the plume runs right down to touch the shoulder, as you find on the normal 1966/67s .

But doesn't detract.......

You just wonder how they could have made such a schoolboy error. They even compounded their own ineptitude by saying "LCW under shield". Unbelievable.

Wow that reverse - stunning

LOL, must be bad weather up your way....I played with some nickel coins previously as there was some debate about the 1923 & 1924 pattern 3d and 1/- coins being only nickel (vs. copper-nickel) alloy. I suppose there is a threshold point as which increasing the copper in the alloy deters the magnetic property....

Quite, and this is the type of coin that is best appreciated by NOT being slabbed although the value might be hurt at sale. Glad to see Sword is evidently of similar opinion with regards to such.

That's why I really like your example. Well struck fringe and hair band make a big difference to eye appeal. Nice toning and clean fields. The deeper marks (one base of neck and hair) are out of the way and not distracting. The strike is a little weak on the top of the crown on the reverse but this is relatively insignificant. For me, its a definite keeper as it would cost a fortune to upgrade to something significantly better.

This specimen was described as "cut on cheek and other light surface marks, otherwise nearly extremely fine". Sold in 2020 for £360 which went cheap I think. Lower estimate was £500. Finally, this specimen was described as "some surface marks, otherwise good very fine, reverse better". Sold for £300 in 2017.

As Eric has pointed out, the weakness of strike does complicate grading of Young Head. For me, eye appeal for this series is as important as grading. Just out of interest, I have been to the DNW website and look at some examples. Then again no auction house's grading is always right or consistent. The example below was graded as GEF, sold for £1350 in 2013 and so would be much much more expensive today. A very impressive specimen.

I could see why you were interested given what sold last night.

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?lot_uid=316087 One from the Hiram Brown sale ,again they should of been catalogued properly.

Yes, he is. You'll have to work it out - a bit like The Masked Singer.

I'd say it's one of those that many sellers would go NEF and many prospective buyers GVF (as far as I can tell without seeing it in hand). There's a little bit of wear, although not much, in the hair and at the top of the reverse. I'd agree that the contact marks are fairly insignificant & not enough to downgrade it.

Yes, Mike, totally see where you are coming from! Any other members have ideas and theories to add to Mike's selective removal idea and my pseudo-pattern conjecture? Also, I wonder if Freeman's rarity of R15 is accurate - seems rarer than that? Wonder if Richard has records of numbers known as part of his rare pennies website? Perhaps there should be a forum competition for who can post a picture of the WORST but still positively identifiable F.14 😋😋

Thanks, Terry and Mike, for your feedback and picture research. I'll keep my eyes peeled, and maybe one will turn up eventually! But it is odd that given the proliferation of lower grade examples of the general date, one never seems to see an F.14 in such a state. There are other diagnostics that should be identifiable such as the missing sail, the exergue on the left being horizontal and the letters of PENNY being a bit further in from the linear circle, but for a good many years now I have been looking and seen pretty much zero! Maybe they weren't intended to circulate, as a sort of pattern, and only a few were made and which largely never saw use?? Bit like the 1860 beaded border pattern obverse - although there are several lower grade examples of those that clearly have circulated - two on eBay at this very moment! Is "Rarepennyman" on eBay a forum member?

Obverse

No. It could be a turkey with flu. .