All Activity

Hello, I bought this coin and the seller said it was a 1733 farthing, but it doesn't look like 1733, maybe 1735? Can anyone provide some insight?

Hello Diaconis On further thought I have doubts about this: D > a nominal 120 Troy-grain noble corresponds to 112½ Tower grains (120 × 450⁄480). Tractus de Ponderibus makes the sterling penny 32 rather than 30 grains - so applies a "Tower wheat grain" smaller than the "Troy wheat grain" Thus I would assume the notional calculation you are reaching for would make a nominal 120 Troy-grain noble correspond to 128 such "Tower Grains" (120 x 480/450) Did I miss something? Regards Rob

Dear Diaconis, Delighted to find we exactly agree regarding observed weights. D > There is no evidence¹ It looks as though you intended to footnote this claim – is that the case? I would much like to get reference to any published sources you favour backing up your position here. Broadly, we are at cross purposes. In general you are addressing the use of words, I am addressing the understanding of things. I agree the Troy weight system apparently got that name around the later 14th century, but hold that the system, as we know it, existed long long before that. Readers should note that there are two later 20th century official English publications on the topic, both HMSO publications from the London Science Museum. Skinner in 1967 tentatively hints that the ultimate origins of Troy weight standards were in Egypt, maybe as early as 4,000 BC. Connor in 1987 tentatively associated them with the metrological reforms of Nero. Meanwhile it is implicit in Grierson (and explicit in both Skinner and Connor) that both standards were a single system already existing in the Anglo-Saxon period. D > a nominal 120 Troy-grain noble corresponds to 112½ Tower grains (120 × 450⁄480). To the best of my knowledge there are only two documents even positing the existence of such a “Tower grain”. One is the famous, (or perhaps infamous) “Tractus de Ponderibus” of the early 13th century. In 1987 Connor (p. 125) called that account “simply not true”. The other is a single obscure internal mint document brought to light by Stewart Lyon. From personal discussion with Stewart I know he was later open to the suggestion that that was just an ephemeral 13th century matter. D > In this respect, Tower and Troy weights did not derive from one another but descend from a shared metrological ancestry. A tantalising suggestion that maybe we are closer than you otherwise suggest? It seems overwhelmingly probable to me that Tower was merely a coin weight, derived from a Troy bullion standard, by a gross charge on coining, by weight, of 15/16. That such had roots at least in the Anglo Saxon period is explicit in Skinner and Connor, and implied by Grierson. Meanwhile - what “shared metrological ancestry” do you posit? Finally, I met the delightful Henri Pottier, and corresponded with Elsen, Doyen and de Callatay. Now I get further evidence that metrological study thrives in Belgium 🙂 Meanwhile I get no reply here at all, from anyone in the Britain, concerning this, the foundation stone of our “pre-decimal” coinage. 😞 All the Best for 2026 Rob Tye

Ah yes I see it now.

No, it’s definitely CIVI TAS, the AS is very clear and there are four characters beginning with C in the CIVI quarter. Always worth looking out for spelling and positional errors though, I’ve got a Henry III penny of Hereford reading HENRICS , also a known variety. Jerry

I’m intrigued by the 2024 mintage figures of sets (25,000) vs circulation (0). Does this mean that the 2024 definitive coins will be highly collectible because of such low mintages or that they will be considered alongside commemorative issues such as Star Wars 50p’s, etc, so of little interest? And how would anyone differentiate them from the set coins (maybe apart from condition) if the mintage of, say the 2024 20p, was 1,000 for circulation rather than 0? I accept that 2023 was an exception given that the set coins had the privy mark on the obverse, which I believe would clearly define them as not intended for circulation and akin to commemorative issues. If the 2024 coins are considered non-circulating then surely the same logic should have been applied to coins such as the 1950 and 1951 pennies (which I’m pretty sure all penny collectors will have in their collections, but were only struck for circulation in Bermuda and the Bahamas) which were not meant to circulate in the UK, and even more so to the 1933, which was obviously never struck for circulation? I’m just curious as to what would make a circulation vs non-circulation strike of an otherwise identical coin (obviously I’m discounting proofs and/or precious metal versions).

Are you sure that the second isn't TAS/CIVI/LON/DON? That's a known class 9b pernny error reverse legend. The diameter would help of course

H, Obviously I don't know what type of scales you have but "1 gram each" sounds a bit rounded to me and could mean anything from 0.50 to 1.49g. . Do your scales not display 100ths of a gram? BTW, diameters are also important for aiding ID, preferably in tenths of a mm. For reference my Edward pennies weigh between 1.24 and 1.43g each and have diameters of 17.8 to 20.4 mm. With Short cross pennies a cut half could weigh 0.53g (so 1 gram) and a full coin 1.43g (also 1 gram). You'd be surpised what we could come up with given as much infomation as possible, some of which cannot be gleaned from a photo. Steve

Not gloating on the cricket as well as the weather Bahh humbug

PS sorry about the rant, H, I love your enthusiasm, you’ve woken the forum up a bit…but PLEASE buy some scales, they cost pennies and halve the effort required in identifying your coins.

Yes, both are pennies given the weights. For a complete coin, weight is usually a good starting point. You really need to use the information and guidance available to you and become your own ‘expert’ rather than relying on others who clearly don’t care what they tell you. Jerry

I meant printings, not editions. I know about the 1985 edition, but I imagine there may well have been more than one printing of the 1970 edition?

Hey, H, I personally think both the coins are pennies tbh! You have been majorly misled by the idea that one is a farthing, it’s ridiculous! As for myself I feel really uncomfortable with you setting ‘expert’ against ‘expert’ to attain provenance/identity, etc.…it all sits very uncomfortably with me, personally, especially when you can’t even provide a basic weight, at nothing beyond the cost of around £15. Speaking only for myself…I’m looking for your personal, and financially minimal commitment of weight in the future!

Hello Jerry, I have the scales that show they weigh 1 gram each, I took additional photos using a more up to date technology.... both coins are in a truly worn out condition so I was surprised that anything could be discovered....

All Greek to me, I'm afraid.

I hope that everyone had a most enjoyable Christmas, I certainly did with the concomitant lashings of Christmas comestibles for which I paid for in a regrettable surfeit of calories and post-festive penitence😂..... Haven't "been on" for a while and noticed this interesting post by Mr. Tye, so I thought I'd have a stab at it... You are quite right to point out that the observed weights of surviving 1351 nobles cluster very closely around what we would now express as c. 120 Troy grains, and that the variation you cite (for example, 7.75 g) is entirely consistent with normal medieval tolerances, including the remedy at the shear. On purely numerical grounds, the metrology is remarkably stable. Where I would differ is not on the arithmetic, but on the historical inference drawn from it. There is no evidence¹ that the Troy weight system as such—that is, explicitly named, formally defined, or administratively adopted—existed in England in 1351 or was used as “Troy” to regulate coin weight. At that date the Tower mint, producing the noble, was still operating explicitly in Tower weight, and continued to do so until its formal replacement by Troy weight in 1527 under Henry VIII. Expressed in Tower-weight terms, a nominal 120 Troy-grain noble corresponds to 112½ Tower grains (120 × 450⁄480), which fits comfortably within contemporary Tower-weight reckoning. What your figures do demonstrate, however, is that the grain employed in England in 1351 is effectively identical to the later Troy grain, and that the regulation of the noble’s weight is entirely consistent with what we would now describe as Troy-grain-based measurement. In that limited, practical sense, the Tower system behaves exactly as Troy would later behave. In this respect, Tower and Troy weights did not derive from one another but descend from a shared metrological ancestry, which is precisely why the English transition from Tower to Troy in 1527 was arithmetically seamless. The difficulty, then, is one of nomenclature rather than metrology. To describe the 1351 standard as “Troy” risks importing a sixteenth-century administrative label into a fourteenth-century context. In short, the numbers are sound; what is at issue is whether it is historically accurate to call them “Troy” before the name, the system, and the administrative framework had yet been adopted in England. ¹Should anyone be aware of a fourteenth-century English mint ordinance that actually uses the word “Troy,” I would be delighted to see it; until then, the numbers seem stubbornly unimpressed by nomenclature. With that, may I wish everyone a very happy New Year. May your grains be stable, your scales honest, your tolerances forgiving, and your anachronisms few — and may 2026 finally deliver that elusive coin we all hope to find. 🥳

The second coin reads ‘CIVI TAS LON DON’ not ‘ LONDONIENSIS’ and judging by its size is probably a halfpenny not a farthing. Have you bought a suitable scales yet? Jerry

I shared these photos with another expert. to my surprise they both have been identified in this condition. 😲 Edward I, penny, Canterbury. CIVI TAS CAN TOR Edward I, base silver, large flan, farthing. London LON DON IEN SIS crikey I nearly put them in with the others that are rubbed beyond recognition. This has been a great end to the year for me. 👍🍻

1868 Penny possibly with the Bar Missing in A in "Victoria" I have a better 1868 Penny but not one potentially missing the bar (presumably grease or wear)

In recent years it has been on the 1st of January. I think there may have been some preventative technicality concerning making circulation coins available with a date in the future.

Does any reader know when the Royal Mint will be selling 2026 coin sets etc. If my memory serves me correctly they were usually available in December of the previous year.

yummy one of the few dates of farthing i want i even have a 1686

I am pleased to discover how scarce the Farthing is too! I have this one in my collection. No idea when or where I picked it up.

This is the Nicholson example, was later in the Pywell-Phillips Spink sale Oct 2018.