Potential Acquisition

[Paulus]

I am being sent this coin on approval.

If it passes muster 'in hand', it will likely fall into the category of 'would I regret it if I turned it down? -Yes, I think I would'.

Is it a rare coin that only comes up for sale once in a while? - No

Are there better examples out there, with a sharper strike and a more centred obverse? - Definitely

But it has eye appeal for me, in fact it ticks a lot of boxes. I can easily live with its defects, and at the price on offer I am unlikely to lose much, if anything, if I decide to move it on one day.

Thanks to Coinery, Rob and TG for your valuable opinions and information on this coin

S2868 Class 3C

Edited April 14, 2015 by Paulus

[PWA 1967]

Looks nice paulus,not having a clue about them though what is it ?.

[Paulus]

It's a Charles I Half Crown, produced some time in 1643-44 (English Civil War) at the provincial mint in York (Ebor - short for Eboracum, the Latin name for York)

I've wanted one for some time, now that I have shifted my focus back to later hammered it's easily justified!

Edited April 14, 2015 by Paulus

[PWA 1967]

That tells me why the horse race meeting at york in august is called the ebor meeting. I have learned something else.

[Paulus]

That tells me why the horse race meeting at york in august is called the ebor meeting. I have learned something else.

Indeed!

Edited April 14, 2015 by Paulus

[Rob]

Struck most likely between August 1643 and the 28th January 1643/4, with August or September the favourites.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Rob

[Paulus]

Struck most likely between August 1643 and the 28th January 1643/4, with August or September the favourites.

Your knowledge is astounding, as is often the case.

Regardless of how common these coins are or are not, I am so taken by what must have been taking place at the time! Love it.

[Paulus]

For those that are interested, this is how the coin was last attempted to be sold at auction, at Lockdales A111 Jan 2014. It's probable that at the time this coin (and many others in the collection) were over-priced, allowing for commission etc:

Wouldn't grade it GVF myself, but still learning with hammered, and will be for some time!

[Rob]

Virtually all the York coins were struck in the period 28th January 1642/3 to 28th January 1643/4. The type 3 halfcrowns were later than the type 2s based on the wear to the horse punch which was the same for both types. The Briot style shilling dies were later still according to the wear seen on the punches. We know that the Pocklington Hoard contained a few dozen type 3s which were fresh as from the mint when found. The most likely reason for their concealment would have been the breaking of the Hull siege by Parliamentary troops on the 11th October 1643 and their subsequent advance to around Stamford Bridge, thus threatening York, at which point the Royalists retired to the city for the winter and left on the 28th January 1643/4 to head north and confront the Scots Covenenters who were advancing on Newcastle.

Whilst it doesn't confirm these months as the time they were struck, it is likely that more silver would have been available during the summer when they were enjoying success on the battlefield than the following winter when contemporary diaries record that there was little coining taking place due to lack of silver. Once the Northern Army left in the January, troop numbers in York dropped from about 10,000 to 8 or 900 which also demanded less coin. The cavalry left for the north while the remaining troops were foot soldiers, suggesting the shilling was a more practical denomination at this point in time. A cavalryman earned 2/6d per day, the foot soldier a shilling - when the got paid which wasn't often.

[Rob]

For those that are interested, this is how the coin was last attempted to be sold at auction, at Lockdales A111 Jan 2014. It's probable that at the time this coin (and many others in the collection) were over-priced, allowing for commission etc:

Wouldn't grade it GVF myself, but still learning with hammered, and will be for some time!

Nor did anyone else. That's why it was unsold. They were all overgraded.

[Rob]

You've seen it before, but here's a gVF type 2.

[Paulus]

Virtually all the York coins were struck in the period 28th January 1642/3 to 28th January 1643/4. The type 3 halfcrowns were later than the type 2s based on the wear to the horse punch which was the same for both types. The Briot style shilling dies were later still according to the wear seen on the punches. We know that the Pocklington Hoard contained a few dozen type 3s which were fresh as from the mint when found. The most likely reason for their concealment would have been the breaking of the Hull siege by Parliamentary troops on the 11th October 1643 and their subsequent advance to around Stamford Bridge, thus threatening York, at which point the Royalists retired to the city for the winter and left on the 28th January 1643/4 to head north and confront the Scots Covenenters who were advancing on Newcastle.

Whilst it doesn't confirm these months as the time they were struck, it is likely that more silver would have been available during the summer when they were enjoying success on the battlefield than the following winter when contemporary diaries record that there was little coining taking place due to lack of silver. Once the Northern Army left in the January, troop numbers in York dropped from about 10,000 to 8 or 900 which also demanded less coin. The cavalry left for the north while the remaining troops were foot soldiers, suggesting the shilling was a more practical denomination at this point in time. A cavalryman earned 2/6d per day, the foot soldier a shilling - when the got paid which wasn't often.

Umm ... Your knowledge is astounding, as is often the case.

This is why I love this period in English history, One of the major reasons for having coins at all was to pay the troops, look at what happened with James II Gun Money!

Guess it's only genuine antique stuff from 350+ years ago after all ...

[Paulus]

You've seen it before, but here's a gVF type 2.

That's a nice benchmark Rob, and already had the images for reference. I'm under no illusions, the coin I am considering is VF at best

[Nicholas]

That's a really nice example Rob.

Mines a slightly earlier Type - not nearly as pretty.. great history lesson BTW

Edited April 15, 2015 by Nicholas

[Rob]

That's a really nice example Rob.

Mines a slightly earlier Type - not nearly as pretty.. great history lesson BTW

Mmmmmmmmm.

[Peter]

Some very nice 2/6's gents.

[copper123]

Yorkshire was quite a stronghold for royalist sympathizers , it also had a lot of it's castles destroyed by the parliamentarians , such a shame they were really nice ones as well , not as grand as the welsh ones but pretty good

[Paulus]

For those that are interested, this is how the coin was last attempted to be sold at auction, at Lockdales A111 Jan 2014. It's probable that at the time this coin (and many others in the collection) were over-priced, allowing for commission etc:

Wouldn't grade it GVF myself, but still learning with hammered, and will be for some time!

Nor did anyone else. That's why it was unsold. They were all overgraded.

Further to this, I have found the catalogue entry where this coin was previously sold at Lockdales in November 2011 (for £1000 hammer). On this occasion the coin was described as NEF! Do Lockdales have a reputation for over-grading (I have never used them)?

[azda]

Yes, i use them with extreme caution

Edited April 16, 2015 by azda

[Paulus]

Thanks Dave! It's important to know these things, it's not as if you can return them if not happy with the grading is it!

[sound]

Well as to whether lockdales over grade is debatable. I would say they are no worse or better than several auction houses. Certainly I have seen coins over graded and some under graded. Guess which ones it's a good idea to bid for?

Having said that it's an opinion anyway.

Paulus if you bid online, my understanding is that you can return them. Anything purchased through the Internet can be returned within fourteen days.

Mark

[azda]

Very true, but they are piss poor when it comes

To grading, its all about £s Paul. I remember Alan from MHCOINS had a little issue with their grading around the start of the year, he started a topic, you should be able to find it.

Mark obviously never read Alans post either, i would say IMO Lockdales are serial overgraders, judging by the NEF grade inthe above coin and others from there.

Edited April 16, 2015 by azda

[Coinery]

Is still don't get why anyone's bothered about grade with hammered coins? Quality is what counts, and that ain't nothing to do with grade.

I've just bought (naughty I know) a 700 year old penny! The legend is all blocked, the reverse cross too! But, the coin is a million dollars' worth of quality, as far as I'm concerned! There isn't a mark on the flan other than the stresses of the strike, and the imperfections of the original flan! It's uncirculated in my eyes but, in reality, is a what?

when you can get a porous, pin-holed, plough-dug, unc...why bother?

I honestly believe hammered and traditional grading are totally incompatible.

[azda]

Beauty is inthe eye ofthe beholder Stewie and eventually its new buyer

P.s the halfcrown above is milled

Edited April 16, 2015 by azda

[Paulus]

As you recently succinctly put it Stu, there are really only 2 things to consider - eye appeal and price. I agree that grading is much harder and subjective with hammered, but I do not think that there is no place for it at all!

Having said that, the older the coin, the more I tend to ignore others' opinions and simply judge the coin in my eyes vs others I have seen, and the price on offer ... the challenge very often being, can you trust the pics you are presented with (are they good enough, or possibly enhanced or hiding a defect) - very often you cannot see the coin in hand before committing.

Is that right what Mark has said, if you bid on-line you can return an item for a refund within 14 days??? If so, I am surprised, and did not know that!