More Pennies

[blakeyboy]

Yes, it did rather wander off- passion in different areas leads to this quite often.

How about anyone, as soon as different topics are 'popping up' could say " meet me in the **** area" ?

 

 

(I was going to type  "meet me in the xxxx area", but i felt that that would have some strange connotations...:) )

[JLS]

Returning to the thread's topic...

Are there currency 1861 pennies known with the 1 of the date low and over a higher 1, using the same die as Freeman 36 ? 

This would appear to be an example: 

 

 

[JLS]

Photos of the rest of the coin (sold as a 5/D, looks clearly a 6/G to me). Reverse ghosting so obviously not a proof, weight 9.30 g. 

[alfnail]

Hi, I have seen that a couple of times before, also seen 1 over lower 1 on both F33 and F29.

I believe there are also several examples of 'earlier' 1's to both left and right hand side

My example of F33, 1 over lower 1:-

 

 

[JLS]

Interesting. Doesn't really surprise me given how early on this was in the coinage, they would have been pressed to avoid scrapping dies unless absolutely necessary, hence the 8/6, 6/8 etc. as well as these more minor overdates. 

Do you know if these double entered numeral pieces are worth much of a premium over regular 1861 pieces ? I'm not after another 6/G coin so probably will resell. 

[Peckris 2]

2 hours ago, JLS said:

Interesting. Doesn't really surprise me given how early on this was in the coinage, they would have been pressed to avoid scrapping dies unless absolutely necessary, hence the 8/6, 6/8 etc. as well as these more minor overdates. 

Do you know if these double entered numeral pieces are worth much of a premium over regular 1861 pieces ? I'm not after another 6/G coin so probably will resell. 

In my opinion - no. The final date numeral of 1861 is so variable, virtually every die seems to be different, with variable heights, overstrikes, spacing, slants etc. I'd say no-one except a rare specialist collects all these minuitiae.

Oh, and I just can't see any evidence of a 6/G?

[1949threepence]

8 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

In my opinion - no. The final date numeral of 1861 is so variable, virtually every die seems to be different, with variable heights, overstrikes, spacing, slants etc. I'd say no-one except a rare specialist collects all these minuitiae.

Oh, and I just can't see any evidence of a 6/G?

Agreed. There are so many numeral variations and overstrikes of varying type, that it would be virtually impossible to catalogue them all. Moreover, any one "type" that you findmight be unique in the sense that it's the only one known. This renders them relatively unattractive to most collectors. 

Obviously the well known overstrikes such as the F30 & F33A and the 1865 5/3 are a different matter. There is a definite market for them.

I can't see any evidence of a 6/G either - although I can see a 6 + G   

[alfnail]

Whilst not disagreeing with Chris and Mike, I suspect that if the type which Gouby describes on his Page 42 as BP 1861 Ka (J + d) is found for sale then this would attract a premium...………….because he has documented it.

This is the type with first strike to the left, which he felt worthy of giving a suffix a. Known 2+ and Best VF+.

I'm also thinking that the types with 1's below and above,, which are pictured above, one could reasonably expect to find someone willing to pay a small premium, say around 20%. I also have experience of selling 1862/2's which have sold for more than I would have normally expected if they had no underneath 2. 

[1949threepence]

54 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Whilst not disagreeing with Chris and Mike, I suspect that if the type which Gouby describes on his Page 42 as BP 1861 Ka (J + d) is found for sale then this would attract a premium...………….because he has documented it.

This is the type with first strike to the left, which he felt worthy of giving a suffix a. Known 2+ and Best VF+.

I'm also thinking that the types with 1's below and above,, which are pictured above, one could reasonably expect to find someone willing to pay a small premium, say around 20%. I also have experience of selling 1862/2's which have sold for more than I would have normally expected if they had no underneath 2. 

That 1861 Ka is very obvious when you look at it, with the "trial" 1 standing separately, just to the left of the main numeral 1. Also, as you say Ian, it's been catalogued, which lends an extra cache. 

Interestingly enough, in March 2019, I bought Lot 1253, a variation of a F33A from LCA for £240 hammer, which is described as 8 over wiry 6. It's an 8 over 6, but it's not the well known 33A, which is essentially a F33. This is the Gouby AA (D + d) shown on page 41. This is actually a 2 + D or an F18.

Not brilliant pics, but the "wiry" 6 is visible. 

 

 

 

[secret santa]

Here's an example of the first 1 over 1. Also 6+G.

[Peckris 2]

5 hours ago, secret santa said:

Here's an example of the first 1 over 1. Also 6+G.

The first 1 being overstruck is highly worthy of note, as they tended to reuse the '186' matrix, only punching the final numeral on the die. Obviously there was more than one matrix but only a fraction of the number of dies used.

[JLS]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

The first 1 being overstruck is highly worthy of note, as they tended to reuse the '186' matrix, only punching the final numeral on the die. Obviously there was more than one matrix but only a fraction of the number of dies used.

If "186" was a matrix, how were the 8/6 dies prepared ? Surely some of the dies must have been prepared with individual numeral punches ?

You could explain the 1861 with first 1/1 in the matrix case if whoever was preparing the dies forgot it was in mirror image I suppose, although it seems unlikely; alternatively if the matrix was stamped in angles or was itself ill prepared. 

[Peckris 2]

16 minutes ago, JLS said:

If "186" was a matrix, how were the 8/6 dies prepared ? Surely some of the dies must have been prepared with individual numeral punches ?

You could explain the 1861 with first 1/1 in the matrix case if whoever was preparing the dies forgot it was in mirror image I suppose, although it seems unlikely; alternatively if the matrix was stamped in angles or was itself ill prepared. 

Obviously there would be more than one matrix, and it must be that 8/6 was an error on one such. It's entirely possible that a matrix could be ill prepared, as reduction equipment didn't come in until 1883 at the earliest, quite possibly later, so the engravers were working with lifesize designs.

[blakeyboy]

I know this post is related to pennies for once - unusual for me- but could  the Eagle Eyes look at this and decide what it is?

Thanks!

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by blakeyboy
cocked up layout!

[Paddy]

As you all know I am new to these and not very good, but I would say F76 - Obverse 7 reverse I. 

Now someone tell me I am wrong! 🙂 

[jelida]

I would say F76 as well, the colon after G of D:G: does appear to point directly to a tooth, ie Freeman obverse 7, rather than to a gap as on Obverse 6. The reverse is certainly Freeman reverse I, wide date H below and sea does not cross inner circle. Neat find!

Jerry

[1949threepence]

56 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

I know this post is related to pennies for once - unusual for me- but could  the Eagle Eyes look at this and decide what it is?

Thanks!

 

Definitely a F76, Blake. Quite apart from other pointers, look at the taller helmet plume. It's a surefire giveaway.

Is it yours?

[blakeyboy]

Oh GREAT!!!....been looking for one for years, but wanted to spend nothing- other fish being fried as we speak.

 

£1.76 inc postage. I think a bargain...:)

That's a gap filled, and completes my 1874 set of the 13 basics ( according to Michael Gouby).....

 

 

[1949threepence]

7 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Oh GREAT!!!....been looking for one for years, but wanted to spend nothing- other fish being fried as we speak.

 

£1.76 inc postage. I think a bargain...:)

That's a gap filled, and completes my 1874 set of the 13 basics ( according to Michael Gouby).....

 

 

Wow - I thought when I paid £54 for mine, it was a bargain. Neat capture.

One for Richard's rarest penny site anyway. 

[Iannich48]

44 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

Oh GREAT!!!....been looking for one for years, but wanted to spend nothing- other fish being fried as we speak.

 

£1.76 inc postage. I think a bargain...:)

That's a gap filled, and completes my 1874 set of the 13 basics ( according to Michael Gouby).....

 

 

Very nice find Blake. I sometimes trawl the ebay pennies, but i feel like i am going crosseyed after a couple of hours. And i have never found a convincing rare penny going cheap. Well done for completing your set.

[blakeyboy]

Thanks- I wasn't sure...It's the first thing I do on Ebay, is the 1874's...

Lower grade pennies that aren't supposed to have the sea cross the linear circle get tricky and blurred.

I have most trouble like this with low grade 1861's.....

[alfnail]

On 4/5/2020 at 7:58 PM, JLS said:

Interesting. Doesn't really surprise me given how early on this was in the coinage, they would have been pressed to avoid scrapping dies unless absolutely necessary, hence the 8/6, 6/8 etc. as well as these more minor overdates. 

Do you know if these double entered numeral pieces are worth much of a premium over regular 1861 pieces ? I'm not after another 6/G coin so probably will resell. 

I see that you sold your 1861 F33 1/1 on ebay yesterday for what looks like a good price to me...………….and I think more than you would have achieved had it not been an overdate. Were you pleased?

I found this F33 proof with similar, but not same, overdate to yours. 

[Iannich48]

A proof with a 1/1 nice. That must be worth a premium.

[secret santa]

The 1 over 1 is standard on F36 (bronzed copper proof) and F37A (copper proof) but not on F37 bronze proof.

[JLS]

2 hours ago, alfnail said:

I see that you sold your 1861 F33 1/1 on ebay yesterday for what looks like a good price to me...………….and I think more than you would have achieved had it not been an overdate. Were you pleased?

I found this F33 proof with similar, but not same, overdate to yours. 

Yes, I got just under £200 for it which was rather pleasing - I guess roughly full catalog price for a EF+/AU coin; Mark Rasmussen & co. rate the regular 1861 6 + G at £75/£275 in EF/BU in the 2020 price guide. 

There do seem to be a lot of these 1861/1 dies, which does suggest to me that the variety can't be terribly scarce. But then in nice grade with lustre, not necessarily so easy to find.