More Pennies

[Ianb26]

Hi, Newby to the site, first post.

I have an 1859 penny, with a variant that I cannot find much information on.

“ Tie ribbon between curl and neck”

 

Also there is no W.W., not sure if this as standard.

I would be grateful is someone could give me an idea of rarity, grade and value?

I also have recently got an 1858 small date, again would like an idea of grade, rarity and value.

[jelida]

14 minutes ago, Ianb26 said:

Hi, Newby to the site, first post.

I have an 1859 penny, with a variant that I cannot find much information on.

“ Tie ribbon between curl and neck”

 

Also there is no W.W., not sure if this as standard.

I would be grateful is someone could give me an idea of rarity, grade and value?

I also have recently got an 1858 small date, again would like an idea of grade, rarity and value.

The 1859 is interesting, not a deliberate ‘ribbon’ I suspect, perhaps a die flaw or foreign body impact or result of die clash but if more than a ‘one off’ could become collectable though probably not at a massive premium.

The 1858 small date is scarce rather than rare, unless combined with large rose reverse which yours is not. Maybe a small premium over large date but value is low  I think due to poor condition.

Jerry

[Ianb26]

Hi Jerry, this variant is documented and I have seen at least one more for sale on eBay currently, but that is all I can find.

 

[jelida]

30 minutes ago, Ianb26 said:

Hi Jerry, this variant is documented and I have seen at least one more for sale on eBay currently, but that is all I can find.

 

That’s nice, if others have been recognised that likely increases the desirability. I still doubt that it is a deliberate design modification though, given that the planning for the bronze currency was already well advanced.

Jerry

[alfnail]

The 'ribbon' on this 1859 is die clashing, explained on Gouby's website, where he now also references Peck 404.

The 'overlay' picture below also highlights the 'clash' area. 

[Martinminerva]

57 minutes ago, Ianb26 said:

Hi Jerry, this variant is documented and I have seen at least one more for sale on eBay currently, but that is all I can find.

 

Just because someone has made a random claim on eBay that this is a "rare variety" does not make it a documented fact of any substance. And herein lies the whole problem of so called "AI" - it just regurgitates superficial stuff trawled from the internet with no discernment or discrimination and presents it as gospel truth.  Alfnail's quoting Gouby regarding die clash damage above is proper scholarly documentation, actual fact, and derived from many years of human expertise, experience, analysis and real intelligence. Yet AI couldn't manage to reconcile that internet based evidence...

[secret santa]

As Ian says, this is the result of a die clash and definitely NOT a "distinct ribbon knot".

Some people may find it collectable, but it is not, in my view, an intentional or accidental man-made "variety".

I have an example myself but I haven't even bothered to distinguish it from a "normal" 1859 large date penny.

[Ianb26]

Hi, Ok point taken the “documented” and what is stated on eBay.

From my perspective as a novice to collecting and variants, etc… which is a minefield by the way, when I saw what looks very like a piece of fluted ribbon and at least 2 other people, albeit on eBay saying it is a rare variant, I thought that I had one and asked ‘the experts’ for more information.

In your photo above just looks like a smudge and mine attached looks a lot more like an actual addition with folding and pleating as you would expect in material of the day.

Thank you all for you help, support and instructional responses to my query.

[Martinminerva]

Have a look at Gouby's (brilliant) website if you want to learn more about all the various types of coin varieties, and specifically at this page for this die-clash ribbon issue: https://michael-coins.co.uk/cp1848 ribbon.htm

I also insert a screenshot of some of the subtly different clashes that have typically been observed by Gouby based on the impact pressure and transfer of detail for separate clashes.

 

[alfnail]

I particularly like the 1860/59 tie ribbons (plural)............always present in same place + further clashing under Victoria's chin.

 

 

[Ianb26]

Thanks for the clarification.

[terrysoldpennies]

1861  Freeman 28   5+G   Managed to pick this one up recently ,  in not to bad a condition and its an upgrade for me .          A devil of type to find in high grade !!! 😊

[alfnail]

On 10/26/2024 at 3:26 PM, secret santa said:

Gouby says this variety (1898Ab) is "scarce ?"

But 1898 Ba and Ca are both "rare"

So, almost certainly No but I doubt that anyone has done a serious analysis.

I recently found this 1898 penny on ebay. I believe it is Gouby type Ca, which is rare, but I cannot easily find and auction (or other) sale information for this sub-variety. Does anyone have any sale information which might help me value please?

  

[Rob]

On 3/31/2026 at 4:58 PM, alfnail said:

I recently found this 1898 penny on ebay. I believe it is Gouby type Ca, which is rare, but I cannot easily find and auction (or other) sale information for this sub-variety. Does anyone have any sale information which might help me value please?

  

No idea. I have a few bisected 8s in the pile here, but all low grade, so I usually put them in the trays at a tenner or thereabouts and hope someone buys them. Ultimately, they aren't that collectable except to the die nerds, which pennies of all ages seem to attract. It isn't obvious without a glass and specialists obviously want a mint sate example. Needless to say, if anyone pays silly money for an obscure variety at auction, then dealers will naturally follow suit. The attached sold for the princely sum of £8

[PWA 1967]

38 minutes ago, Rob said:

No idea. I have a few bisected 8s in the pile here, but all low grade, so I usually put them in the trays at a tenner or thereabouts and hope someone buys them. Ultimately, they aren't that collectable except to the die nerds, which pennies of all ages seem to attract. It isn't obvious without a glass and specialists obviously want a mint sate example. Needless to say, if anyone pays silly money for an obscure variety at auction, then dealers will naturally follow suit. The attached sold for the princely sum of £8

Your own coin Rob is not the same as Ians which is Bisect BP1898Ca and much rarer, yours is Ba. Although i agree not the easiest coin to sell Ians is probably worth about £80 if he can find someone that wants one, obviously he can asks what he wants its just finding someone that wants one and priced any higher may have it a while.

[absence of uniformity]

A sold example of the BP1898Ca with remaining luster graded A/UNC sold for £400.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by absence of uniformity

[PWA 1967]

15 minutes ago, absence of uniformity said:

A sold example of the BP1898Ca with remaining luster graded A/UNC sold for £400.

 

Yes i am aware of the prices ones have sold for, grade is everything though and a big difference in one A/UNC with lustre and Ians.

[absence of uniformity]

1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

Your own coin Rob is not the same as Ians which is Bisect BP1898Ca and much rarer, yours is Ba. Although i agree not the easiest coin to sell Ians is probably worth about £80 if he can find someone that wants one, obviously he can asks what he wants its just finding someone that wants one and priced any higher may have it a while.

 

3 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Yes i am aware of the prices ones have sold for, grade is everything though and a big difference in one A/UNC with lustre and Ians.

Absolutely yes, I was replying to Ians initial question to give an idea as he said he couldnt find auction/sale prices.

[absence of uniformity]

12 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Yes i am aware of the prices ones have sold for, grade is everything though and a big difference in one A/UNC with lustre and Ians.

Here's a coin I have although I'm not sure. Its hard to see properly.

[PWA 1967]

6 minutes ago, absence of uniformity said:

 

Absolutely yes, I was replying to Ians initial question to give an idea as he said he couldnt find auction/sale prices.

There has been ones that have sold for more, problem with the variety is they are only really rare in grades better than VF. When one does turn up in higher grades they have sold for good money although one less person wanting one. This is  why the price of one like Ians is hard to accurately price and more just got to try them, although try them to high and collectors start to compare them with much better examples and ones in Fine there are plenty of for £25.

[PWA 1967]

7 minutes ago, absence of uniformity said:

Here's a coin I have although I'm not sure. Its hard to see properly.

That looks to be Ba the same as Robs.

[PWA 1967]

2 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

That looks to be Ba the same as Robs.

Although looking on the main computer may even be a normal one and would need a clearer picture.