More Pennies

[Ianb26]

Hi, Newby to the site, first post.

I have an 1859 penny, with a variant that I cannot find much information on.

“ Tie ribbon between curl and neck”

 

Also there is no W.W., not sure if this as standard.

I would be grateful is someone could give me an idea of rarity, grade and value?

I also have recently got an 1858 small date, again would like an idea of grade, rarity and value.

[jelida]

14 minutes ago, Ianb26 said:

Hi, Newby to the site, first post.

I have an 1859 penny, with a variant that I cannot find much information on.

“ Tie ribbon between curl and neck”

 

Also there is no W.W., not sure if this as standard.

I would be grateful is someone could give me an idea of rarity, grade and value?

I also have recently got an 1858 small date, again would like an idea of grade, rarity and value.

The 1859 is interesting, not a deliberate ‘ribbon’ I suspect, perhaps a die flaw or foreign body impact or result of die clash but if more than a ‘one off’ could become collectable though probably not at a massive premium.

The 1858 small date is scarce rather than rare, unless combined with large rose reverse which yours is not. Maybe a small premium over large date but value is low  I think due to poor condition.

Jerry

[Ianb26]

Hi Jerry, this variant is documented and I have seen at least one more for sale on eBay currently, but that is all I can find.

 

[jelida]

30 minutes ago, Ianb26 said:

Hi Jerry, this variant is documented and I have seen at least one more for sale on eBay currently, but that is all I can find.

 

That’s nice, if others have been recognised that likely increases the desirability. I still doubt that it is a deliberate design modification though, given that the planning for the bronze currency was already well advanced.

Jerry

[alfnail]

The 'ribbon' on this 1859 is die clashing, explained on Gouby's website, where he now also references Peck 404.

The 'overlay' picture below also highlights the 'clash' area. 

[Martinminerva]

57 minutes ago, Ianb26 said:

Hi Jerry, this variant is documented and I have seen at least one more for sale on eBay currently, but that is all I can find.

 

Just because someone has made a random claim on eBay that this is a "rare variety" does not make it a documented fact of any substance. And herein lies the whole problem of so called "AI" - it just regurgitates superficial stuff trawled from the internet with no discernment or discrimination and presents it as gospel truth.  Alfnail's quoting Gouby regarding die clash damage above is proper scholarly documentation, actual fact, and derived from many years of human expertise, experience, analysis and real intelligence. Yet AI couldn't manage to reconcile that internet based evidence...

[secret santa]

As Ian says, this is the result of a die clash and definitely NOT a "distinct ribbon knot".

Some people may find it collectable, but it is not, in my view, an intentional or accidental man-made "variety".

I have an example myself but I haven't even bothered to distinguish it from a "normal" 1859 large date penny.

[Ianb26]

Hi, Ok point taken the “documented” and what is stated on eBay.

From my perspective as a novice to collecting and variants, etc… which is a minefield by the way, when I saw what looks very like a piece of fluted ribbon and at least 2 other people, albeit on eBay saying it is a rare variant, I thought that I had one and asked ‘the experts’ for more information.

In your photo above just looks like a smudge and mine attached looks a lot more like an actual addition with folding and pleating as you would expect in material of the day.

Thank you all for you help, support and instructional responses to my query.

[Martinminerva]

Have a look at Gouby's (brilliant) website if you want to learn more about all the various types of coin varieties, and specifically at this page for this die-clash ribbon issue: https://michael-coins.co.uk/cp1848 ribbon.htm

I also insert a screenshot of some of the subtly different clashes that have typically been observed by Gouby based on the impact pressure and transfer of detail for separate clashes.