More Pennies

[secret santa]

There is an indescribable feeling of owning a particular coin - any coin. Even if it's locked away, modern photographs are sufficiently good as to provide visual access at any time.

Some people may prefer to spend their money on holidays, or expensive cars - I prefer to buy coins - I can't really describe why and I don't expect others to feel the same way or understand. That's what makes us all different.

[mrbadexample]

47 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

What is the motivation behind owning a coin where only 6 exist? 

Because then I've got something not many other people have got. 

[VickySilver]

Exactly on the last two. I really love pursuing a rare coin, even if perhaps in an undercontested series but let alone in the series like the penny. No need to beat the chest but such coins really enhance and in some fashion "make" a collection. The stories behind getting these for some of us that are not "checkbook collectors" are of personal satisfaction and sometimes interesting even to others that we might share these stories with. Also, as Richard says, we do have photographic records and even write articles on occasion using these coins.

To be honest, I look at my better coins about as frequently as those that are just filling an "open" space in a series run.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, DrLarry said:

I'm asking because I am interested in the motivations of collectors:  What is the motivation behind owning a coin where only 6 exist?  Of course I understand from an investment point of view but what could be done with it other than placing it in a vault.  Perhaps you would visit it once a week, or have it over for dinner .....once a year for a party but then I assume you would have to have security .....I know the feeling of finding circulation coins where the rarity of the coin is related to its age and its survival but then partly that is the thrill of the hunt, the discovery the spotting ...I'm intrigued 

Keep it as part of the the rest of your collection at home. There are numerous unique and virtually uncrackable hiding places for items as small as a coin, which something so iconic as a 1933 penny, could be secreted in. But nevertheless still readily accessible for the owner who has sole knowledge of its secure location.   

It's not like the security options available for a rare painting.

Edited December 13, 2022 by 1949threepence

[oldcopper]

29 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Keep it as part of the the rest of your collection at home. There are numerous unique and virtually uncrackable hiding places for items as small as a coin, which something so iconic as a 1933 penny, could be secreted in. But nevertheless still readily accessible for the owner who has sole knowledge of its secure location.   

It's not like the security options available for a rare painting.

It's the forgetting where you hid it that's the problem......

[Rob]

You set out your collecting criteria and buy whatever ticks the boxes, irrespective of whether there's 1 or millions of them. I've got a couple dozen things which are either unique or the only one available, but also coins of which billions were struck, such as a clad steel penny to tick the eponymous box. The vast majority are somewhere in the middle, but all have equal status within the collection as value or rarity aren't defining parameters.

[Bernie]

The 1933 penny for auction is definitely a proof. It was contained in a proof set. I owned a 1933 currency penny for about ten years, to me it was just a date that completed my collection of currency pennies. I never cherished this coin, it was only a George 5th penny with a different date numeral. I absolutely worship my 1860 pattern pennies and can't imagine parting with them.

[Peckris 2]

1 hour ago, Bernie said:

The 1933 penny for auction is definitely a proof. It was contained in a proof set. I owned a 1933 currency penny for about ten years, to me it was just a date that completed my collection of currency pennies. I never cherished this coin, it was only a George 5th penny with a different date numeral. I absolutely worship my 1860 pattern pennies and can't imagine parting with them.

I can well understand that, and feel something similar. Having said that, I'd be willing to pay up to £300 for a convincing fake made from a genuine penny of that series.

[VickySilver]

Thanks Bernie for your input; I would very much like to have seen the entire 1933 proof set intact and any paperwork or circumstances that accompanied it. 

[1949threepence]

9 hours ago, DrLarry said:

I'm asking because I am interested in the motivations of collectors:  What is the motivation behind owning a coin where only 6 exist?  Of course I understand from an investment point of view but what could be done with it other than placing it in a vault.  Perhaps you would visit it once a week, or have it over for dinner .....once a year for a party but then I assume you would have to have security .....I know the feeling of finding circulation coins where the rarity of the coin is related to its age and its survival but then partly that is the thrill of the hunt, the discovery the spotting ...I'm intrigued 

So what motivates you to collect? 

[1949threepence]

40 minutes ago, VickySilver said:

Thanks Bernie for your input; I would very much like to have seen the entire 1933 proof set intact and any paperwork or circumstances that accompanied it. 

Yes, that really would be interesting to see.

[Menger]

11 hours ago, DrLarry said:

I'm asking because I am interested in the motivations of collectors:  What is the motivation behind owning a coin where only 6 exist?  Of course I understand from an investment point of view but what could be done with it other than placing it in a vault.  Perhaps you would visit it once a week, or have it over for dinner .....once a year for a party but then I assume you would have to have security .....I know the feeling of finding circulation coins where the rarity of the coin is related to its age and its survival but then partly that is the thrill of the hunt, the discovery the spotting ...I'm intrigued 

Why does rarity matter to collecting? 

“Rarity” (in the sense we are talking about) is not just “number in existence” (“supply”), but the combination of supply and demand.  In “rarity”, a common coin with a unique feature nobody cares about ranks below one with a scarce feature many care about.  (My daughter’s art is unique and nobody cares - it is not “a rarity”). 

Why do we care that other people care? Because that lends the thing an objective quality, as well as subjective. It becomes greater than our own predilections, critical as they are. 

Put differently, it adds value. That value may manifest in a financial sense, but to a collector it is greater than that. For want of a better word, it is “ spiritual”.  

That spirituality is what separates the collector from the investor, though we may be both. 

Amen.

[oldcopper]

15 hours ago, Bernie said:

The 1933 penny for auction is definitely a proof. It was contained in a proof set. I owned a 1933 currency penny for about ten years, to me it was just a date that completed my collection of currency pennies. I never cherished this coin, it was only a George 5th penny with a different date numeral. I absolutely worship my 1860 pattern pennies and can't imagine parting with them.

The last 1860 pattern pennies I recall were in Spink auction Dec 2015, both bronzed beauties, one the Roman date in a curve. Fantastic coins.

[secret santa]

2 hours ago, oldcopper said:

Fantastic coins.

Absolutely 

https://headsntails14.wordpress.com/victoria-official-pattern-obverses-reverses/

[mrbadexample]

18 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

I can well understand that, and feel something similar. Having said that, I'd be willing to pay up to £300 for a convincing fake made from a genuine penny of that series.

That's a part of collecting I don't get. I don't have the desire to replace rarity with fakes / replicas or whatnot. You'd spend your money and still not have a 1933 penny. 

[secret santa]

2 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

I'd be willing to pay up to £300 for a convincing fake made from a genuine penny of that series.

Done !

[blakeyboy]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:54 PM, mrbadexample said:

Because then I've got something not many other people have got. 

We're back to Reggie Perrin and the Grot shop, but it's true- a major major driving force!

[1949threepence]

In addition to the great remarks already made, there's one or two more tremendous pluses as far as coins are concerned. Once you have any coin, it's yours for life if you want it to be. You can look at it whenever you want, appreciating it, and maybe contemplating its history - what pockets, purses, tills or collections it may have been in. Same with all the coins you've got.

Once in your ownership, they will never cause you any hassle, annoyance or grief and can only ever enhance your relaxed moments. 

[Peckris 2]

On 12/14/2022 at 5:11 PM, mrbadexample said:

That's a part of collecting I don't get. I don't have the desire to replace rarity with fakes / replicas or whatnot. You'd spend your money and still not have a 1933 penny. 

No, but I'm never going to have a genuine 1933; however, if I'm collecting a complete date run of that series, a convincing fake carefully crafted from a genuine penny would fill a gap.

 

On 12/14/2022 at 7:17 PM, secret santa said:

Done !

Ah. I'm happy to offer £50 for that one! I was thinking of one in VF or better

 

4 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

I am not so sure that rarity has a lot to do with the "solely or souly with supply and demand " .....  it is lot to do with marketing and fashion  ..hence why uncommon features are of little interest to many.  yet perhaps they possess a capacity to unlock some knowledge or history no one thought to look for or seek. I am sure Picasso was a cheap buy at some point or a Monet 

I think there's 3 factors:

1. objective i.e. absolute number minted

2. being recognisable - which explains why H & KN pennies (for example) are more in demand than minor varieties of bun pennies

3. popularity, which as you say is a product of marketing to some extent; either way coins can come into fashion a drop out again.

[1949threepence]

18 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

No, but I'm never going to have a genuine 1933; however, if I'm collecting a complete date run of that series, a convincing fake carefully crafted from a genuine penny would fill a gap.

 

Ah. I'm happy to offer £50 for that one! I was thinking of one in VF or better

 

 

Ingram is offering one with a "cleverly altered date" (looks clumsy and botched to me), for an overpriced £325 - link 

[Menger]

1 hour ago, DrLarry said:

am not so sure that rarity has a lot to do with  "solely or souly with supply and demand " .....  it is lot to do with marketing and fashion  ..hence why uncommon features are of little interest to many.  yet perhaps they possess a capacity to unlock some knowledge or history no one thought to look for or seek. I am sure Picasso was a cheap buy at some point or a Monet 

Nobody said “solely”, but “marketing” precisely seeks to affect “demand” (how much people want something).  

Marketing may be relevant to add luster at the margin of the odd high end rarity from Heritage - or new release from the RM - but the demand aspect of rarity for most coins is established by a more organic, bottom up process (indeed, like “fashion”).  

Shiny, historically interesting objects are all for the good - but rarity connotes something else.  

Yes - that is the point - Picasso and Monet may once have been unique (little “supply”), but they were not rarities (and, closely related, had little economic value) until they had matching “demand”.  Just like my daughter’s art … 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Menger

[mrbadexample]

55 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

No, but I'm never going to have a genuine 1933; however, if I'm collecting a complete date run of that series, a convincing fake carefully crafted from a genuine penny would fill a gap.

I don't leave a gap. If I get that lucky then I'm prepared to move everything along one. 

[1949threepence]

Very popular are the quasi fake Taylor restrikes. 

When the SOHO Mint was closed in 1848, and whether by default or design, Birmingham die sinker W.J.Taylor purchased some genuine SOHO coin dies along with scrap metal, and proceeded to mint his own. He was relatively successful at it, as he had a number of orders, and many of these re-strikes are still available today. Although often lightly spotted because the dies were rusted, some are actually very attractive looking, such as the 1806 and 1807 (R97 and R98) restrike pennies. Supposedly bronzed copper, the bronzing seems a bit thin, and the result is actually a very pleasing dark

 

golden tone in many cases.        

[Menger]

1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Very popular are the quasi fake Taylor restrikes. 

When the SOHO Mint was closed in 1848, and whether by default or design, Birmingham die sinker W.J.Taylor purchased some genuine SOHO coin dies along with scrap metal, and proceeded to mint his own. He was relatively successful at it, as he had a number of orders, and many of these re-strikes are still available today. Although often lightly spotted because the dies were rusted, some are actually very attractive looking, such as the 1806 and 1807 (R97 and R98) restrike pennies. Supposedly bronzed copper, the bronzing seems a bit thin, and the result is actually a very pleasing dark

 

golden tone in many cases.        

In my collecting sphere, the same could be said for the various proof groats (from 1837, 1853, 1857 and 1862)  with anachronistic obverses from later decades.  They are “fakes” in a sense, but possibly more valuable than the real McCoy because of their added rarity.  On the other hand, high prices for the Maundy masquerading as key date 3d are a case of the market having imperfect knowledge - which I expect will correct. 

[Rob]

I think the dividing line between collectable and not in restrikes or non-circulating issues are whether original dies were used. Modern ones could be made in China or wherever and cast copies are just that, but Taylor for example actually had the Soho dies, some of which were unfinished when he acquired them in the sale following closure in 1848. We are talking about things that weren't intended for circulation or to deceive, that were struck in small numbers and are part of numismatic history. At no point have they been put forward misleadingly as legal tender.

The research has been done and the market has decided that they are collectable. One day, someone will plough through and document the current Chinese output and they too will have their enthusiasts. Probably just a reminder that there is no right or wrong way to collect, rather a reasonable or not price to pay for something.