More Pennies

[1949threepence]

31 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

You miss the point of my interest in it .  The position of the other Britannias is not so much an issue in all of those the trident is pulled towards the body and the position of the arm to elbow  is in balance,  the hand grasps the trident in a relaxed manner  the older Wyons design is artistically relaxed and has an equilibrium.  My intrigue into the Wyon design stems from trying to understand the mindset of the artist and the design .  He is known to have wanted to move far away from the seated Britannia  designing originally a standing Britannia.  The anatomical problems in the hand and arm are not necessary in the design and trying to understand the nman is my interest.  A penny is a penny, what's done is done but if, by questioning such things, we learn somethings about the man then my " in for a penny" is on discovery and analysis.   The portrait still has it's problems but a portrait is more likely to be stylised to fit on a coin, he did have to return to the queen 3? times to get something that was acceptable to Her,  Albert and others I am sure.  It is strange reading the "re-written" edited diaries of Queen Victoria there isn't much of a mention of any of these portrait issues.  But then we don't know for sure they were edited by her daughter 

Simply an observation based on your comments. Hopefully it will be of interest to others on a general level. 

I don't know how many times he returned to the Queen, or even if he did, but judging by the number of different patterns in 1860, I'd imagine Her Majesty did raise some questions. 

 

[secret santa]

9 hours ago, Peckris 2 said:

it says the closing bid was £5,500 but it didn't meet the reserve.

No bids

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/0e729832873217a63d9c2c16c64c8331/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silver/

[oldcopper]

10 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Simply an observation based on your comments. Hopefully it will be of interest to others on a general level. 

I don't know how many times he returned to the Queen, or even if he did, but judging by the number of different patterns in 1860, I'd imagine Her Majesty did raise some questions. 

 

She dismissed the Wiener shilling bust(s) straightaway.

[Rob]

She was not amused on many occasions. The 12 jubilee head pattern halfcrowns dated 1884 bear testament to that. That bust took 3 years to be acceptable, only to be superseded 6 years later. I don't think she liked it from the beginning, as the 1888 and 1890 pattern crowns were the first incarnation of the eventually adopted veiled head bust. 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, oldcopper said:

She dismissed the Wiener shilling bust(s) straightaway.

Yes, from memory I think she may have raised concerns about look of her eyes and nose. I don't imagine she'd have been especially bothered about the reverse side, and once she'd said she was happy with the design, that would have been taken as satisfied with the entire obverse and reverse - which would then have gone ahead based on that. 

Obviously Britannia was pretty much the same appearance as on the pre 1860 coinage. 

[oldcopper]

3 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Yes, from memory I think she may have raised concerns about look of her eyes and nose. I don't imagine she'd have been especially bothered about the reverse side, and once she'd said she was happy with the design, that would have been taken as satisfied with the entire obverse and reverse - which would then have gone ahead based on that. 

Obviously Britannia was pretty much the same appearance as on the pre 1860 coinage. 

I have to say the Wiener bust in not pretty, she looks a bit hard. I can't blame Victoria for rejecting it. The reverse would have been incidental as you say.

[Peckris 2]

13 hours ago, secret santa said:

No bids

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/0e729832873217a63d9c2c16c64c8331/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silver/

This is contradictory. It says - as you do - "0 bids", but also says "Closing bid: 5,500 GBP"...

[1949threepence]

29 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

This is contradictory. It says - as you do - "0 bids", but also says "Closing bid: 5,500 GBP"...

Wonder what the reserve was? Maybe there was a notional bid of £5,500, but it was not considered as an effective bid as below the reserve price.  

[secret santa]

Given that the estimate was £10-12K, I imagine that the reserve was somewhat higher than £5.5K but, if so, why start so low ?

Is that a "come and get me" starting level ?

In the same sale, here's an example of a coin that didn't meet its reserve although it did have a bid, so I assume that no bids means no bids, to paraphrase Theresa May.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/d3cfc4b59ea829d9300d9c650f7b8836/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silv-lot-454/

[Peckris 2]

12 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Given that the estimate was £10-12K, I imagine that the reserve was somewhat higher than £5.5K but, if so, why start so low ?

Is that a "come and get me" starting level ?

In the same sale, here's an example of a coin that didn't meet its reserve although it did have a bid, so I assume that no bids means no bids, to paraphrase Theresa May.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/d3cfc4b59ea829d9300d9c650f7b8836/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silv-lot-454/

Bid of only £25 for those 3 beauties? Someone was 'having a laugh'.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

Given that the estimate was £10-12K, I imagine that the reserve was somewhat higher than £5.5K but, if so, why start so low ?

Is that a "come and get me" starting level ?

In the same sale, here's an example of a coin that didn't meet its reserve although it did have a bid, so I assume that no bids means no bids, to paraphrase Theresa May.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/d3cfc4b59ea829d9300d9c650f7b8836/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silv-lot-454/

Not surprised as it's certainly one of the best, if not the best out there. Maybe, what? GVF, possibly NEF. You'd wait a lifetime to even see one better.

Wonder if it has any provenance attached. 

[Bruce]

2 hours ago, secret santa said:

Given that the estimate was £10-12K, I imagine that the reserve was somewhat higher than £5.5K but, if so, why start so low ?

Is that a "come and get me" starting level ?

In the same sale, here's an example of a coin that didn't meet its reserve although it did have a bid, so I assume that no bids means no bids, to paraphrase Theresa May.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/d3cfc4b59ea829d9300d9c650f7b8836/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silv-lot-454/

My result showing the same.  If my bid didn't meet reserve, they are showing 1 bid n reserve not met.  For the 1922 penny, the reserve maybe at 8k, 10k or 12k, only auctioneer know.  I have placed bid for a medal lot with estimate at 30-35, but i remember the reserve was at 50 or 60.

[VickySilver]

I really don't get the aggravating philosophy of having a starting bid less than the minimum bid. It IMHO does NOT generate bidding frenzies or increase of actual buying interest.

[Peckris 2]

11 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Not surprised as it's certainly one of the best, if not the best out there. Maybe, what? GVF, possibly NEF. You'd wait a lifetime to even see one better.

Wonder if it has any provenance attached. 

Does anyone have an idea of how many are 'out there'? Presumably more - though perhaps not many more - than the 1933, which would make it one of rarest and most desirable 20th century pennies (excluding the 1920, 1952, and 1954 which - being presumed singletons - are beyond the reach of the fattest purse).

[Iannich48]

Maybe the sellers could mention what the actual reserve is, before the auction finishes.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Iannich48 said:

Maybe the sellers could mention what the actual reserve is, before the auction finishes.

It should surely be in the advance auction information, rendering it pointless for the auctioneer to start the bidding on any less. 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Does anyone have an idea of how many are 'out there'? Presumably more - though perhaps not many more - than the 1933, which would make it one of rarest and most desirable 20th century pennies (excluding the 1920, 1952, and 1954 which - being presumed singletons - are beyond the reach of the fattest purse).

There's 14 known on Richard's rarest pennies site, which makes it about level with the 1877 F90, narrow date, but somewhat better state of preservation.

link 

[Fubar]

20 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

It should surely be in the advance auction information, rendering it pointless for the auctioneer to start the bidding on any less. 

There are several reasons that the auctioneer will start below the lower estimate -
There is no reserve.
The reserve is lower than the bottom estimate.
He thinks the estimate/reserve is too high and he wants to move on quickly.
He's going to bounce bids "off the wall" to get interest going. (He's allowed to do this in a limited way up to the reserve by law)
He's trying it on as previously suggested but this is rare and self defeating.

I could never understand the secrecy about reserves. As a porter I was only allowed to say that it wouldn't be higher than the lower estimate. Don't forget the estimate is usually based on guesswork and a wee bit of research. The reserve is totally down to the customer and the auctioneer can only recommend a figure. A lot of customers usually have an inflated idea of the worth of an object.

A lot of estimates are a bit like basing who is going to win a football match by reference to  teams from 10 years ago. 🤣

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Fubar said:

There are several reasons that the auctioneer will start below the lower estimate -
There is no reserve.
The reserve is lower than the bottom estimate.
He thinks the estimate/reserve is too high and he wants to move on quickly.
He's going to bounce bids "off the wall" to get interest going. (He's allowed to do this in a limited way up to the reserve by law)
He's trying it on as previously suggested but this is rare and self defeating.

I could never understand the secrecy about reserves. As a porter I was only allowed to say that it wouldn't be higher than the lower estimate. Don't forget the estimate is usually based on guesswork and a wee bit of research. The reserve is totally down to the customer and the auctioneer can only recommend a figure. A lot of customers usually have an inflated idea of the worth of an object.

A lot of estimates are a bit like basing who is going to win a football match by reference to  teams from 10 years ago. 🤣

Thanks - very useful info. 

[VickySilver]

I don't have issue with where the estimate is, and as you've said, who really cares. And bidding can begin at, above or below this number. What I don't understand the start below reserve since it is not a "real" auction IMHO & the wall bouncing idea is likely poor as evidenced in this auction.

[1949threepence]

Very pleased with this 1854/3 penny bought from the recent December LCA. It's in cracking condition and even has some slight lustre on the obverse. I can't do a close up, but I have enlarged the obverse as best I can. Shows the typical slightly blurry and worn hair appearance at the front, and clearing to more normal at the back.

The normal characteristics of a 4/3 are there in the date, showing to right and left at top of the 4, and then in the space between the lower vertical of the 4 and the left side of the cross bar.

There was a slight doubt as the hair looked better in the LCA pic, and of course they didn't do a date close up either. Took a chance on the coin based on description, and pleased I did.

  

[Peckris 2]

10 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Very pleased with this 1854/3 penny bought from the recent December LCA. It's in cracking condition and even has some slight lustre on the obverse. I can't do a close up, but I have enlarged the obverse as best I can. Shows the typical slightly blurry and worn hair appearance at the front, and clearing to more normal at the back.

The normal characteristics of a 4/3 are there in the date, showing to right and left at top of the 4, and then in the space between the lower vertical of the 4 and the left side of the cross bar.

There was a slight doubt as the hair looked better in the LCA pic, and of course they didn't do a date close up either. Took a chance on the coin based on description, and pleased I did.

Any chance you could do a close-up of the date?

[1949threepence]

38 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Any chance you could do a close-up of the date?

I can't but there's one on Richard's rare penny website - scroll down to example 13. link

[PWA 1967]

1933 Penny in the signature sale at Heritage ,although graded as currency and thought to be a proof 😀

George V Penny 1933 MS63 Brown NGC, Royal mint, KM838 (Rare), | LotID #62002 | Heritage Auctions (ha.com)

Edited December 13, 2022 by PWA 1967

[VickySilver]

That is a really wonderful and sharply struck coin, hard to see it as currency. This was such a dream coin - the 1933 penny - for me and so many others, sadly never to be. Interesting to see if any of the surge in values for coins will catch up with this coin or not. 20th century Brit bronze have not IMHO seen much rise in the last 5-6 years.