More Pennies

[jelida]

3 hours ago, secret santa said:

This penny is listed as an "E over F" in the next LCA - can anyone see anything to verify this ? And why would anyone have picked up an "F" punch to work on the reverse die of a bronze "ONE PENNY" ? And would an "F" punch of this size even exist ?

Bound to be an E over E,  I think the photo shows the bottom limb of the lower ‘E’ as well. I won’t be bidding.

Jerry

[alfnail]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:34 PM, Cliff said:

What do you reckon to this folks, repair gone adrift?

Hi Cliff, hope all well with you.

Over the years I have seen several YH pennies with similar weak dates.

Here are some examples

 

[secret santa]

1 hour ago, DrLarry said:

what yeah is this ?

1860 if that's the question.

[1949threepence]

5 hours ago, secret santa said:

I'm quite surprised that this one didn't sell, as the bronze pennies achieved very strong prices.

Yes it is a bit surprising, notwithstanding the edge damage at 12 o'clock. I think the estimate was £700, and it is a vastly superior specimen to the one Coopers are offering for very little less.    

[Iannich48]

5 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

YEAH .....it is ....thanks      I was giving the answer of the question that came after .......reverse TWO Ronnies mastermind routine 

That was a brilliant sketch.

[PWA 1967]

6 hours ago, secret santa said:

I'm quite surprised that this one didn't sell, as the bronze pennies achieved very strong prices.

Yes ,i must of set the reserves to high ,which is always hard if not much to compare them with.

However IMO much better than having a reserve that is to low and risk giving them away ,just a case of trying to be fair / realistic and now found out i was wrong  😀

[blakeyboy]

Charlie Smithers.

[PWA 1967]

On 11/8/2022 at 7:12 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Yes ,i must of set the reserves to high ,which is always hard if not much to compare them with.

However IMO much better than having a reserve that is to low and risk giving them away ,just a case of trying to be fair / realistic and now found out i was wrong  😀

Just an update for anyone who has one or maybe interested ,both the Large rose sold after the auction for the reserves.

Although was only informed this morning.

[Peckris 2]

2 hours ago, DrLarry said:

can someone give me their wisdom please and tell me what is it in the Victorian Bronze coinage that changes after 1863 that results in a consistent mintage with few errors for many years?  Is it that the steel improves in quality so that they can simply throw away damaged dies rather than repair them.  apart from one error in the 1863 half penny with an  E over an E in PENNY and the 1865 over 3 nothing much happens.  the same in the PENNY 65 over 3 but then nothing until the Heaton years.   Was there a change in management and method? 

My own tuppence ha'penny's worth: they encountered so many problems over the first 4 years of bronze that they eventually managed to iron them out. Also, it must have involved such a gargantuan effort between 1858 and 1863 that they may have decided to cut not only their losses but reduce such enormous expenditure.

[1949threepence]

The obvious answer is that when the bronze coinage was introduced the Mint faced many challenges involving short lived dies. Very many die pairings were tried out, without long term success. By 1863 much of this had been overcome when the best working die pairings had been put into effect, 6 + G for pennies, 7 + G for halfpennies and 3 + B for farthings.

That combination of die pairings then remained in effect until the next major changes in 1874. 

[blakeyboy]

I wonder what a French 5 and 10 centime collector of the 1850's would make of this conversation?

Did they show these problems, and if not, why not?      Same metal, same size, same company.....

[Peckris 2]

On 11/12/2022 at 8:42 AM, DrLarry said:

Yes I have often wondered that very question myself.  I have various tokens with Entente Cordiale with the head of Victoria and you would have thought that this friendly juice could have perhaps stretched to having a chat.  Perhaps it is an issue of the complexity of the design as much as anything.   Having looked at the   Canadian bronze from this period there don't seem to be quite so many errors.  I think I have one 1862 over 1861 

Yes, we went from a large thick copper with a bold and heavy design, to smaller thinner bronze with what had to be a shallow design. Major change.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Peckris 2 said:

Yes, we went from a large thick copper with a bold and heavy design, to smaller thinner bronze with what had to be a shallow design. Major change.

Also, of course, the old copper blanks were much softer and hence easier on the dies. Bronze being a harder metal meant many smashed dies/dies with a short life expectancy, before they finally got it right.

[blakeyboy]

I think that not studying die wear and faults on bronze strikings carried out by Heaton before 1860 is a mistake.

The die variations and reasons behind them may well be more easily explained if earlier foreign bronze coinage was studied to the extent 

that bronze UK pennies and halfpennies 1860-63 have been.....

[Iannich48]

Well if Mr Wyon had not made any mistakes, the bronze coinage of 1860-63 would have been a lot less interesting.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Iannich48

[1949threepence]

41 minutes ago, Iannich48 said:

Well if Mr Wyon had not made any mistakes, the bronze coinage of 1860-63 would have been a lot less interesting.

Very true !

It wouldn't solely be down to him anyway. As with every other major venture it was a collaborative effort involving many different personnel.

[Peckris 2]

2 hours ago, DrLarry said:

it intrigues me because it is so yet I cant stop thinking your father had a perfectly modelled seated Britannia why not just copy it.  The hand is correct and the position of the trident in good balance, the hand grasps it just as it would naturally. 

the copper Britannia necessitated a bold and deep cut design. it probably wouldn't have translated in shallow form to bronze? so a new flatter design was brought in. having said that, I do like the bronze reverses.

[Iannich48]

8 hours ago, Iannich48 said:

Well if Mr Wyon had not made any mistakes, the bronze coinage of 1860-63 would have been a lot less interesting.

Of course, i should have mentioned the other engravers etc, not all down to Mr Wyon.

[secret santa]

I'm surprised that there were no bids for that nice 1922 F192A yesterday - it's one of the best of a really rare bunch.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/0e729832873217a63d9c2c16c64c8331/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silver/

[1949threepence]

9 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I'm surprised that there were no bids for that nice 1922 F192A yesterday - it's one of the best of a really rare bunch.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/0e729832873217a63d9c2c16c64c8331/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silver/

Didn't even know it was up for sale.

[oldcopper]

On 11/14/2022 at 11:16 PM, Iannich48 said:

Of course, i should have mentioned the other engravers etc, not all down to Mr Wyon.

I don't know of any other bun head penny engravers, considering LCW is signed on both sides at some stage or another. The only other one that I know of was Minton for the rare coronet patterns.

The legend and date varieties will have been down to the die sinkers.

[secret santa]

8 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

Didn't even know it was up for sale.

It was publicised in Coin News.

[1949threepence]

37 minutes ago, secret santa said:

It was publicised in Coin News.

Missed it. I'd have been happy to fork out savings for that as well. As you say, a very nice specimen. 

Sounds as though I was far from the only one to overlook it though, as it didn't sell. Can't imagine for one miilisecond that it wouldn't have sold through LCA or Noonans, at probably well above the reserve price.   

[1949threepence]

58 minutes ago, DrLarry said:

For me the question is one of quality of work,  when I look at all other work Wyon Produced the attention to detail is excellent .  Of course, I know, we are dealing with a new metal but some of the quality of the design is just about C grade.  This is me looking at it from an anatomical point of view artistically.  Reading the diaries you get the idea he was pretty sick of the whole venture and I think the venture may have contributed to his sickness at this time too.  Sure, as I have said before,  the average punter sees something different and accepts it.   I have been struck looking at them solidly for the last 5 years or so since I have collected, how poor the design is "close up".  It is anatomically impossible to get a model into the position of the Britannia without dislocation or blunt trauma to the hand.  So I have wondered in my fairy dust tinkerbell moments if some of the engraving and alterations were done by someone a lot less able than Wyon.  It also does not surprise me that his name was taken off ....I would have asked to have it removed if I were the artist.  

 

Anyways it's all pie in the sky or Lucy along with her diamonds and if that particular chemical had have been involved I would certainly understand the eventual outcome.  I love the bun penny it is however just WRONG.  I offer a prize to anyone who can contort their arm shoulder and hand finger arrangement to match it and take a photo to prove it....   PERHAPS AN ANNUAL COMPETITION ON HERE FOR THE CLOSEST i'LL OFFER £20 AS A STARTER   

lol 

The anatomical anomaly you refer to started in the reign of George IV, and continued deep into the 20th century. Obviously the natural position for that posture and shield positioning, would have shown Britannia's fingers visible outside the shield, with her thumb behind, or maybe resting on top.

It does seem odd that it was never spotted through a magnifying glass by collectors, or if it was - and pointed out to the mint - why it was never rectified. Nor have I ever seen it mentioned anywhere else. 

I'd venture to say that at the time of Leonard Charles Wyon, Britannia's design was very much secondary to the Queen's head. He would have been far more concerned about pleasing her with a flattering portrait. Britannia's image was no doubt essentially cloned from previous designs, without too much thought. Very few members of the general public would ever have known, or if they did, cared.

There isn't a lot the "average punter" can do about it now. It's not stopped them, or me, from collecting.  

[Peckris 2]

14 hours ago, secret santa said:

I'm surprised that there were no bids for that nice 1922 F192A yesterday - it's one of the best of a really rare bunch.

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/0e729832873217a63d9c2c16c64c8331/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/timed-auction-of-750-lots-of-coins-medallions-and-silver/

it says the closing bid was £5,500 but it didn't meet the reserve.