More Pennies

[mrbadexample]

I would like to think that someone on here picked that up.

[blakeyboy]

another one I missed: anyone here smiling???

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1863-One-Penny-Coin-Queen-Victoria-Great-Britain-in-Extra-Fine-XF-Condition/274615232659?hash=item3ff057e893:g:5AcAAOSw6rZf2ROD

[jelida]

13 minutes ago, blakeyboy said:

another one I missed: anyone here smiling???

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1863-One-Penny-Coin-Queen-Victoria-Great-Britain-in-Extra-Fine-XF-Condition/274615232659?hash=item3ff057e893:g:5AcAAOSw6rZf2ROD

Aha, that one is safe with me.....😃

Jerry

[blakeyboy]

Oh I'm seething now...ah well can't watch everything....:)

Nice one Jerry!

I'm raising a glass of Ujliesa Squinzano Rocca del Mori to you as I write this.

(A present)

 

First Xmas at home for 26 years.....

[1949threepence]

8 hours ago, Iannich48 said:

Same here, i had not spotted that one.     I look at their site regularly. I am in disbelief right now, F148?

Absolutely a F148, and worth at least 20 times that amount. KB Coins has one in the same grade for £1450. I've noticed before that Cambridgeshire Coins seem a bit careless on varieties. 

Worth keeping a watchful eye on.

Edited December 25, 2020 by 1949threepence

[Iannich48]

42 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Absolutely a F148, and worth at least 20 times that amount. KB Coins has one in the same grade for £1450. I've noticed before that Cambridgeshire Coins seem a bit careless on varieties. 

Worth keeping a watchful eye on.

The worrying thing is that the previous owner did not get much for this lovely coin. Maybe deceased and the family did not know about coins.

[1949threepence]

16 minutes ago, Iannich48 said:

The worrying thing is that the previous owner did not get much for this lovely coin. Maybe deceased and the family did not know about coins.

Yes, I wondered that. Good Point. 

[alfnail]

On 12/23/2020 at 11:26 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Was a lucky find really in a household goods auction online but not attributed.

Auctioneers scans.

Hi Pete, it looks as though your obverse probably has the extra leaf, making it  Gouby Obverse R, and also looks like the 9 is wide enough to make it a BP 1889Ad. MG in his new pages has the widest 9 as only seen on Obverse S, i.e. BP 1889Cd. He has not documented a BP 1889Ad. Have you had opportunity to check the width accurately?

I have just checked Richard's englishpennies and he has the widest date as Obverse R, but then called it a Cd. I think it needs to be either Ad (R + r) or Cd (S + r). Don't think the example is high enough grade to examine the important leaf area and decide which obverse type for sure anyway.

Hoping this is making some sense as 2 bottles down today!   

[alfnail]

Here is my own widest date, which I think is an undocumented BP 1889Ad (R + r). Extra leaf is definitely visible, also right for a 'd' date width suffix.

 

[blakeyboy]

Ok- two penny questions 29 years apart:

 

1 . I've noticed that my best 1904 penny had the 4 over a tooth.

is this something to get exited about?

I notice that London coins don't seem to reflect the rarity of the variant ...

 

 

2. I know that Michael G documents the 1875 obverse dot by the 'I' of VICTORIA,

and postulates about a speck of something migrating from obverse to reverse dies, which I don't understand

because it's a dot not a a ding but anyhow he mentions the large date only.

i've just noticed the two obverse dot types I have both have the small date as the obverse....is this unusual?

 

It takes a strange Christmas day to notice such things.....!

[Martinminerva]

11 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Here is my own widest date, which I think is an undocumented BP 1889Ad (R + r). Extra leaf is definitely visible, also right for a 'd' date width suffix.

 

Actually all these widest date 1889s I've seen (half a dozen or so) are obverse R (when the leaf area is clear, that is) with the extra leaf and NOT obverse S. I think it's an error in Michael Gouby's book, and they all should be BP 1889Ad. I have never seen a positively identifiable 1889Cd.  Not a huge worry as they are properly rare anyway, but for the sake of total precision, I believe they are all this die pair in actual fact.

[alfnail]

Thanks Martin, I'm thinking you are probably right.........let's see if any member claims to have a positively identifiable Cd 

[PWA 1967]

They all have the extra leaf ,although obviously the low grade ones it cant be seen and the same width with the higher 9.

 

Pete.

Edited December 26, 2020 by PWA 1967

[secret santa]

Could you put the reverse up please Pete - I'd like to include this on my varieties website as illustration.

[secret santa]

11 hours ago, alfnail said:

I have just checked Richard's englishpennies and he has the widest date as Obverse R, but then called it a Cd

I called it Cd straight from Michael's book (without noticing that he had it as S+r) and obverse R because it was sold as obv 12 (R) in Colin Cooke's catalogue (lot 107) for the Tony Crocker sale.

I probably never bothered to check the obverse but, as you say, it is so worn as to make it unidentifiable. I will now change it on the basis of the above information - many thanks.

 

[secret santa]

I have just sent  Pete's and Ian's pictures to Michael for his comments.

[jelida]

13 hours ago, blakeyboy said:

Ok- two penny questions 29 years apart:

 

1 . I've noticed that my best 1904 penny had the 4 over a tooth.

is this something to get exited about?

I notice that London coins don't seem to reflect the rarity of the variant ...

I think they are quite rare, at least it took me a long time to find mine. The Copthorne example (catalogue still online at Colin Cooke) in worn condition attracted a considerable premium if I remember correctly.

Jerry

[secret santa]

26 minutes ago, jelida said:

The Copthorne example

The website says £70 but I wrote £35 into the catalogue at the time - spooky !

Edited December 26, 2020 by secret santa
correction

[alfnail]

On 12/3/2020 at 1:00 AM, PWA 1967 said:

Michael has now made his study of the 1847 No colon "Medusa" penny available for anyone that may be interested.

http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/CP1847M-Medusa.htm

Pete.

I have CP1847MJ, pictured below. It has pretty good detail, but does have the verdigris as can be seen. I keep coming back to the question of whether I should try to remove it / improve the coin if possible. As yet I haven't been brave enough to attempt anything myself; I have never tried verdigris removal before, and would first want to have practice attempts on less valuable similar pieces anyway. There's also a part of me saying leave it alone....but then I'm worried that the verdigris may develop.

I would welcome views from members on this please, thanks.  

[Martinminerva]

On 25 December 2020 at 5:02 PM, jelida said:

Aha, that one is safe with me.....😃

Jerry

You pipped me to that one, Jerry! I was just "buying it now" when it closed!

Also, did anyone on here get this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Queen-Victoria-Penny-1861-/393052202355?hash=item5b83bca573%3Ag%3A0uYAAOSwzEpf03PO&nma=true&si=HsvO6lNGBPRb%2BAmvjfay%2BxU5S9A%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It is an 1861 6+F, detector find but nice. It actually sold for a best offer of £100. I also put an offer in, but less and was beaten, but that's how I know what it actually went for. If you did get it, can you post better pics, perhaps?

 

[mrbadexample]

On 12/26/2020 at 2:49 PM, alfnail said:

I have CP1847MJ, pictured below. It has pretty good detail, but does have the verdigris as can be seen. I keep coming back to the question of whether I should try to remove it / improve the coin if possible. As yet I haven't been brave enough to attempt anything myself; I have never tried verdigris removal before, and would first want to have practice attempts on less valuable similar pieces anyway. There's also a part of me saying leave it alone....but then I'm worried that the verdigris may develop.

I would welcome views from members on this please, thanks.  

I've been waiting for someone to reply with a good idea but it seems that we're all a bit unsure Ian. 

I take the view that intervention becomes necessary when it would worsen if left untouched. I really dislike verdigris and if this was a £10 coin then I'd have no qualms about getting the reverse in some diluted lemon juice - I'd put a cocktail stick under the good side and just try to dunk the polluted half. It would strip the patina but once done I'd cart it about in my pocket for 6 months or so until it improved in appearance. It'd never look great but it wouldn't matter much.

But it's not a £10 coin so I'd be really concerned my clumsy efforts would make a poor situation worse. I don't think Verdicare would touch it. In my experience olive oil takes forever to do nothing. Perhaps it would be worth contacting one of the TPGs that offers "conservation" services and see what they think they could do with it?

I'd be interested to see how you get on. I would struggle to leave it. 

[jelida]

On 12/26/2020 at 2:49 PM, alfnail said:

I have CP1847MJ, pictured below. It has pretty good detail, but does have the verdigris as can be seen. I keep coming back to the question of whether I should try to remove it / improve the coin if possible. As yet I haven't been brave enough to attempt anything myself; I have never tried verdigris removal before, and would first want to have practice attempts on less valuable similar pieces anyway. There's also a part of me saying leave it alone....but then I'm worried that the verdigris may develop.

I would welcome views from members on this please, thanks.  

I must admit if it were mine I’d try to remove the verdigris. How I would try to achieve that would depend on the appearance under the microscope. Treatment would be somewhere between Verdicare and picking with a fine needle, and brick acid! I have found mildly diluted phosphoric acid on a cotton bud works well, the verd fizzes away yet the metal does not seem affected. The coin does then need re-toning however, a quick start can be made with dry flowers of sulphur in an ice-cream container, covered with tissue and the coin placed on the tissue and lidded and placed in a warm place (windowsill, radiator). Check every few hours. But as always, experiment on low value coins first.

Jerry

[VickySilver]

I suppose olive oil with cotton bud GENTLE application would be relatively safe, with the residual oil removed with liberal rinse and soft detergent with more water irrigation and tamp dry with the high nap white cotton towel....

 

Don't blame you for being a bit nervous. Good score on that coin, and one I'd be happy to own.

[blakeyboy]

Hmmm...copper not bronze.....hmmm...even more with copper, avoid a steel tool at all costs!

Let's assume the striking process work hardened the copper, and let's assume this coin has never been heated,

sooo....if you make a copper pick from a piece of electrical solid core wire, 1 to 1.5mm say,

file the tip as a tiny chisel, the anneal by heating the tip till it's really hot and quenching in water.

Your tool should now be softer than the coin surface, and you can slowly chip the verdigris away.

If you have some wire that is in very fine strands, this will make a very good soft wire brush to tidy up the surface

if you anneal it too. To do this, you will need to strip the insulation back an inch, heat very very quickly on a flame,

plunge into cold water, then slide a tube over the strands to control how long you want the 'brush' to be.

 

This works.

The olive oil will help a lot- it will soften the verdigris if the coin is allowed to soak overnight, and any lubtication 

will make the scraping even kinder.

[1949threepence]

4 hours ago, Martinminerva said:

You pipped me to that one, Jerry! I was just "buying it now" when it closed!

Also, did anyone on here get this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Queen-Victoria-Penny-1861-/393052202355?hash=item5b83bca573%3Ag%3A0uYAAOSwzEpf03PO&nma=true&si=HsvO6lNGBPRb%2BAmvjfay%2BxU5S9A%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It is an 1861 6+F, detector find but nice. It actually sold for a best offer of £100. I also put an offer in, but less and was beaten, but that's how I know what it actually went for. If you did get it, can you post better pics, perhaps?

 

Nice example of an F32. Pity he's got his thumb overshadowing part of it.