More Pennies

[alfnail]

Don't see many of the B26a's nowadays Mike. I think most are tucked away in collections. I'm sure I saw them more often when I first started collecting. I ought to try and do some stats on that variety from my 5 year ebay sample when I get time. 

[1949threepence]

56 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Don't see many of the B26a's nowadays Mike. I think most are tucked away in collections. I'm sure I saw them more often when I first started collecting. I ought to try and do some stats on that variety from my 5 year ebay sample when I get time. 

Thanks Ian - yes, reckon I got a bit lucky there. 

  

[jelida]

This knackered 1862 B over R in BRITT that I was bidding on was pulled today, presumably for an off EBay sale. I am not too aggrieved, as I have one nice one and two other poor examples but it is so annoying when it happens!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-Penny-1873-and-1862-England-Queen-Victoria-S-SS-/283985223175?item=283985223175&ViewItem=&nma=true&si=7jacaEOIZzM%2F9i4INN2leXJtvjs%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

One for your site Richard,  and I have one yet to photograph.

Jerry

[alfnail]

Well spotted though Jerry

[secret santa]

On 8/21/2020 at 5:20 PM, jelida said:

One for your site Richard

Thanks, Jerry.

[1949threepence]

One of the pre 1860 pennies I've found particularly difficult from the identification perspective, is the 1854/3. I'm sure that quite a few of those touted as such are mis-attributed, and I still haven't got one.

Bramah classes them as "rare" but in a "less degree" than some of the others which I've not found especially difficult to obtain. He describes the 4/3 as follows: "The die has been altered from 1853, the 3 showing chiefly to the right and left at top of 4, and in the space between its left base serif and the cross-stroke". That latter point "the space between the left base serif and the cross-stroke", appears to be crucial, because as far as I can tell it shows up quite strongly, whereas marks to the right and left at top of 4 appear so faintly, even under magnification, that you're not sure whether or not you're seeing things that aren't actually there.

Some of the one's I've seen touted as 4/3 seem to be no more than the lower serif, downwards from the right hand side of the aforementioned cross-stroke, seeming to curl round in a sort of semi circular shape, as opposed to the straight lines you see on others. Not sure why there is a difference, but equally, I'm far from convinced that such specimens in and of themselves, are 4/3, as all the other indicators are invisible or just not there at all.

So with this in mind, could those of you who might reasonably be described as way more experienced than me in this regard, possibly give your opinions as to whether or not this coin is an 1854/3? There is excellent magnification if you hover over it.  

Thanks in advance, gents, and sorry to be nuisance.     

[Chingford]

33 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

One of the pre 1860 pennies I've found particularly difficult from the identification perspective, is the 1854/3. I'm sure that quite a few of those touted as such are mis-attributed, and I still haven't got one.

Bramah classes them as "rare" but in a "less degree" than some of the others which I've not found especially difficult to obtain. He describes the 4/3 as follows: "The die has been altered from 1853, the 3 showing chiefly to the right and left at top of 4, and in the space between its left base serif and the cross-stroke". That latter point "the space between the left base serif and the cross-stroke", appears to be crucial, because as far as I can tell it shows up quite strongly, whereas marks to the right and left at top of 4 appear so faintly, even under magnification, that you're not sure whether or not you're seeing things that aren't actually there.

Some of the one's I've seen touted as 4/3 seem to be no more than the lower serif, downwards from the right hand side of the aforementioned cross-stroke, seeming to curl round in a sort of semi circular shape, as opposed to the straight lines you see on others. Not sure why there is a difference, but equally, I'm far from convinced that such specimens in and of themselves, are 4/3, as all the other indicators are invisible or just not there at all.

So with this in mind, could those of you who might reasonably be described as way more experienced than me in this regard, possibly give your opinions as to whether or not this coin is an 1854/3? There is excellent magnification if you hover over it.  

Thanks in advance, gents, and sorry to be nuisance.     

So as not to be confused with Ebay offerings, the three can be seen top and bottom to the left of the 4, 

[copper123]

1858/3 now thats a dodgy one , still waiting for a convincing coin

[1949threepence]

15 minutes ago, copper123 said:

1858/3 now thats a dodgy one , still waiting for a convincing coin

Now thought to be actually 1858/2. 

Truly these are not easily worked out images.  

[secret santa]

Mine's the same as John's.

[1949threepence]

Many thanks to John & Richard for providing accurate images of the 4/3. Very much appreciated. 

I can kind of understand why there are so many mis attributions of this variety. 

[PWA 1967]

A good indicator for a true 1854/3 is the hair detail ,the ones i have seen have all been struck with not much hair from an old 1853 OBV die.

If a coin has all the hair in a condition of VF or better from what i have seen it wont be one.

The Alderley coin which i have seen in hand had good lustre and a really good example was graded As Struck in the catalogue ,reason being it was so weak to the OBV.

So as daft as it sounds to find a really good one means you are looking for a really bad one to the OBV 😃

Looking at the hair  means you can quickly discount the majority if your not sure looking at the date in pictures.

Lots of 1854/3 are miss described IMO as are the 1858/2 & 1858/3 as regardless of what people think they are , they are both different coins.

Only the coin with a die crack through the date is thought to be over a 2 and has a different font than the other.

[Chingford]

6 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

A good indicator for a true 1854/3 is the hair detail ,the ones i have seen have all been struck with not much hair from an old 1853 OBV die.I

 

[Chingford]

6 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Lots of 1854/3 are miss described IMO as are the 1858/2 & 1858/3 as regardless of what people think they are , they are both different coins.

Only the coin with a die crack through the date is thought to be over a 2 and has a different font than the other.

 

[secret santa]

Mine's the same as John's.

[1949threepence]

9 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

A good indicator for a true 1854/3 is the hair detail ,the ones i have seen have all been struck with not much hair from an old 1853 OBV die.

If a coin has all the hair in a condition of VF or better from what i have seen it wont be one.

The Alderley coin which i have seen in hand had good lustre and a really good example was graded As Struck in the catalogue ,reason being it was so weak to the OBV.

So as daft as it sounds to find a really good one means you are looking for a really bad one to the OBV 😃

Looking at the hair  means you can quickly discount the majority if your not sure looking at the date in pictures.

Lots of 1854/3 are miss described IMO as are the 1858/2 & 1858/3 as regardless of what people think they are , they are both different coins.

Only the coin with a die crack through the date is thought to be over a 2 and has a different font than the other.

Interesting old thread on that topic, from 2006. 

  

[secret santa]

Looking through auction archives, the genuine 1854 over 3 does seem to be a rare coin and, as such, I'm going to add it to my rare penny site. I'd be grateful for any photos from members please.

[1949threepence]

3 hours ago, secret santa said:

Looking through auction archives, the genuine 1854 over 3 does seem to be a rare coin and, as such, I'm going to add it to my rare penny site. I'd be grateful for any photos from members please.

Thanks Richard.

It certainly seems to be a lot rarer than either Bramah or Peck gave it credit for. Although Cope & Rayner record it as rarer than 1843 (both types), 1849. 1856 (both types), and alongside 1860/59. No idea about Salzman as I haven't got a copy. 

Conversely, despite the cost, it's actually not overly difficult to obtain an 1860/59, nor an 1849, even if the condition is no great shakes. Dealers have them in stock - more than one of each in some cases.   

But it is, as you say, tricky to identify, and it's incredibly useful to have some decent images of the real deal. Not just for buyers, but also sellers who may have been as bamboozled as some potential enthusiastic buyers ! 

[Chingford]

5 hours ago, secret santa said:

Looking through auction archives, the genuine 1854 over 3 does seem to be a rare coin and, as such, I'm going to add it to my rare penny site. I'd be grateful for any photos from members please.

Example 3 Alderley Collection is correct I bought it, subsequently sold it on a couple of years ago

[secret santa]

25 minutes ago, Chingford said:

Example 3 Alderley Collection is correct I bought it, subsequently sold it on a couple of years ago

Thanks John - do you still have pictures ?

[Chingford]

7 hours ago, secret santa said:

Thanks John - do you still have pictures ?

Lost a lot of my Library, HD Failure and corrupt Backup, will email you with what i can find.

[terrysoldpennies]

2 hours ago, Chingford said:

Lost a lot of my Library, HD Failure and corrupt Backup, will email you with what i can find.

Is this the Alderley Collection you bought from John.  Pictures aren't to clear though.    http://colincooke.com/collections/alderlycollectionvictoria.html

 

[Chingford]

1 hour ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Is this the Alderley Collection you bought from John.  Pictures aren't to clear though.    http://colincooke.com/collections/alderlycollectionvictoria.html

 

Yes, that is the coin and platform I bought from, I emailed Richard some images I have, hopefully He can use them to get a clearer image of the over date.

[VickySilver]

My Best penny of the year, 1853 PT from Goldberg. I apologise for the pieplate pictures that need some help. This ended up at about 300 USD with all the fees and is one of the very nicest that I have seen recently. As they like to say about Morgan dollars, this has booming cartwheel lustre that is very hard to show.

•  

• 

  
  

  I took a video as these pictures don't show the amazing cartwheel lustre this coin has. In hand it appears much more striking (like the pun?).

   

• I have really tried to get better pictures, but this was all I could do with iPhone and natural light:

  
  
  
  

   

 

 

 

 

[1949threepence]

An interesting one sold on e bay today - 1862 penny with dot between O and N of one. Similar sort of place to the 1897 and 1909 dot types.

link