1851 Victoria Farthing, "d Over Sideways D"

[RLC35]

My latest acquisition, a 1851 "D over Sideways D." This is the first one of this type I have owned.

Edited March 1, 2014 by RLC35

[Garrett]

Nice farthing.

[Peter]

Well done Bob

That is still on my sights.

[copper123]

this is the RAREST victorian farthing, in my opinion

[Colin G.]

Nice acquisition Bob, I believe that is the one from the Canterbury Auction recently discussed. Definitely a rare variety with few known, and of extreme difficulty to obtain, but I don't know whether I would call it the rarest variety.

I was also pondering the purchase, well done !

[azda]

Nice Bob

[RLC35]

Nice acquisition Bob, I believe that is the one from the Canterbury Auction recently discussed. Definitely a rare variety with few known, and of extreme difficulty to obtain, but I don't know whether I would call it the rarest variety.

I was also pondering the purchase, well done !

Copper, I think you are right, the coin is very rare, and rarely offered, but Colin is also right...I think the copper 1860 and 1864 are probably a little more scarce!

Thanks to all for the comments. The coin will be on its way to its new owner, in the UK, on Monday!

[copper123]

Yes of course you are right - I could always maybe get hold of a 1851 maybe an unidentified one in a rummage box that has been overlooked.

The same cannot be said of an 1860 copper.

By the way does anyone know the status of an 1860 copper farthing - surely it is considered a pattern / specilly minted coin and NOT a currency item

[Peter]

The 51 farthing is fairly difficult in its own right.

I believe the 1864 was a proof but copper 1860's are just very rare currency coins.

[NRP]

The 51 farthing is fairly difficult in its own right.

I believe the 1864 was a proof but copper 1860's are just very rare currency coins.

Proof and currency versions of the 1860 exist. The currencies being slightly rarer, still only 7 or 8 in existence so yes extremely rare!!

[VickySilver]

I concur with the nice pick up. However [iMO], an overstamped legend letter is not in the same category as an outright date rarity though. The other thing is that I can quite imagine additional specimens turning up if only more '51s were scrutinized, and likely not so with the 1860 copper.

Somehow I don't see an owner of an 1860 swapping for a "D over sideways D".

[copper123]

I somehow disagree that the 1860 copper farthing , halfpenny , penny are currency.

The small number produced also points to them being a special issue for collectors done by the mint at the start of 1860 and sold/ given away to important people.

Even the condition of these coins is outstanding - how often do you find 1859 farthings in similar grade to these surviveing coins?

They were at least undoubtedly currency pieces

[NRP]

I somehow disagree that the 1860 copper farthing , halfpenny , penny are currency.

The small number produced also points to them being a special issue for collectors done by the mint at the start of 1860 and sold/ given away to important people.

Even the condition of these coins is outstanding - how often do you find 1859 farthings in similar grade to these surviveing coins?

They were at least undoubtedly currency pieces

I sold an 1860 copper farthing in October last year, it was definitely a currency version compared to the proof version. The late Colin Cooke had owned every 1860 farthing at some point or another I have a reference to each one

[VickySilver]

And the 1860/59 did circulate as evidenced by the condition of many extant specimens, many poorly struck and circulated even after the change to smaller modulus and less intrinsically valuable bronze bun head pennies.

[copper123]

Does it not beggar belief that one pair of dies produces only 7 or 8 coins for circulation.

Even the mule 20p produced at least 100, 000 coins

[copper123]

the 1860/59 circulated?maybe just a few got spent by mistake.

surely that could happen as well

[Rob]

Pennies are seen in circulated condition far more frrequently than either of the others. In fact, I can't think of any seriously worn examples of either smaller denominations.

Does anyone know if the copper halfpennies and farthings were demonetised before the pennies? Just thinking in terms of relative wear.

[Garrett]

the 1860/59 circulated?maybe just a few got spent by mistake.

surely that could happen as well

Maybe someone owned a nice specimen, appreciated it every day, and died 10 years later. Someone come along, found a shiny copper that looked like so many others, and spent it.

[Rob]

the 1860/59 circulated?maybe just a few got spent by mistake.

surely that could happen as well

Maybe someone owned a nice specimen, appreciated it every day, and died 10 years later. Someone come along, found a shiny copper that looked like so many others, and spent it.

That must be wrong. Copper pennies were demonetised in 1869 which is only 9 years on. I was just wondering if the two smaller coins went earlier once supplies had been sufficient to cope with demand.

[RLC35]

And the 1860/59 did circulate as evidenced by the condition of many extant specimens, many poorly struck and circulated even after the change to smaller modulus and less intrinsically valuable bronze bun head pennies.

You are right about the 1860/59, some did circulate. I have a AEF specimen, and until very recently, also had a Fine example, so some did circulate, and in the case of the Fine specimen...circulated quite a bit!

[NRP]

Well in that case what about the 1952 currency halfcrown? Unique and that certainly wasn't a proof.

[copper123]

And 1954 penny.

I think quite a few were made until a decision to melt them down was made , with just the odd one or two escaping the melting pot .

As these were not intended to be released i would class them the same as the 1860 copper coins.

Their release is pure chance and it was not intended.

[copper123]

And by the way does not everyone remember colin's pattern 1821 farthing.

that was found in well circulated condition , after somehow finding its way into circulation.

Also you have the anne farthings as well - they are considered patterns but look more like currency after so many circulated if only for a short time , till the stories appeared in the papers saying they were worth £25 000 and only two had been made

Edited March 7, 2014 by copper123

[Peckris]

I somehow disagree that the 1860 copper farthing , halfpenny , penny are currency.

The small number produced also points to them being a special issue for collectors done by the mint at the start of 1860 and sold/ given away to important people.

Even the condition of these coins is outstanding - how often do you find 1859 farthings in similar grade to these surviveing coins?

They were at least undoubtedly currency pieces

Produced for collectors? Then how do you account for the 60/59 overdate?

My view is that the 1860 issues were done very briefly to meet demand in the event of the bronze conversion running into a few delays. Though that only makes sense completely if the 1859 dies had been used up due to the anticipated changeover.

[copper123]

surely 7 or 8 copper farthings would have only take 15 seconds or so to make.Do you think the rest were consigned to the melting pot? I dont think will ever know as the mint surely did not keep complete records untlil the 20th century