Heritage - Eric P Newman Collection

[Nicholas]

Any chance of sharing these 2 coins? Love to see them.

[Accumulator]

I tend to look at it from a different perspective...if I choose to buy a coin that is going in my collection, I do not see any harm with trying to allocate a provenance to it, and think that as forgery is becoming a more prevalent issue and undoubtedly will only get worse, having a provenance that can show that this particular example was included in a sale prior to that point can only be a good thing.

When determining scarcity of a coin, tying up provenances also enables you to get a more representative idea of the numbers of a type in existence, whilst this is only really of benefit for rarer coins/varieties, it certainly can provide vital information.

Finally when I have discovered that a coin I own does have a provenance, it does add something to the coin for me, I could not put my finger on exactly what that something is, but to know that a fellow collector coveted this coin, and chose it as the example they wanted in their collection does add something.

I would not pay above the odds for a coin with provenance, but it is a factor that would certainly come into play if I was looking at two similarly graded examples at a similar price...not that this scenario is likely to happen very often .

I completely agree. As well as helping to avoid counterfeits, provenance adds significantly to the history of the piece.

[Coinery]

For me, provenance is history, much like a family tree!

With a nice hammered coin I wonder and dream about who'd handled it, which market and tavern it may have passed through, etc. To trace the coin back through the last 150 years or so is also pretty good for the historical juices!

I'll take them with OR without though I have to say!

[Paulus]

For me, provenance is history, much like a family tree!

With a nice hammered coin I wonder and dream about who'd handled it, which market and tavern it may have passed through, etc. To trace the coin back through the last 150 years or so is also pretty good for the historical juices!

I'll take them with OR without though I have to say!

That floats my boat too, and I must confess I would pay a (normally small) premium for provenance!

[jaggy]

I have seen the collection online and will be bidding .... actually have bid ..... on a number of coins.

Have not seen the physical catalogues, however.

I don't know if you have to buy them or, as a Heritage customer, you get them automatically. I am in the UK at the moment so do not know what is in the mail at home.

Update: just back from the post office where a heavy box with four different catalogues was waiting for me:

- Eric P. Newman collection Part III - Jan 14 -16

- World and Ancient Coins Auction - Jan 5-6 & Jan 20-21 (2 different catalogues)

- World Currency Auction - Jan 9 & 13.

[Nicholas]

I got my copies here in oz. Must say though that all the coins look way over graded, or is that the Heritage bright photos playing tricks?

[jaggy]

I got my copies here in oz. Must say though that all the coins look way over graded, or is that the Heritage bright photos playing tricks?

I agree on the over-grading. There also seems to be some over-bidding going on. And there is still three weeks to go

Edited December 27, 2013 by jaggy

[Accumulator]

Not the Eric P Newman sale yet, but I've been watching today's Heritage auction and the prices for top grade items are crashing through estimates. Not really my area, but I watched a plain edge 1847 Gothic Crown proof, graded PR65, make $35,250 and an 1887 £5 proof, graded PR66, hit $47,000! These are big numbers.

I liked the 1887 pattern penny in gold but that hit over $20,000 so my fingers kept well away from the keyboard!

[azda]

The problem being is that many bidders will bid on the grade stated on the slab regardless of what you or i think, and in doing so pushing the price beyond what normal collectors will pay.

Jaggy mentioned he's Willling to push the boat out on one coin, but if its bi á holder and graded as MS65 or more then it will get ugly. The whole bidding on the slab number irritates me along with American TPGs grading British coins, they just have nothing to benchmark them with and it seems if the grader had a good night before then you'll have a cracking grade.

Sorry, but their whole System is wrong and is pushing coin collecting towards the elite buyers.

(My opinion, so keep the hair on peeps, not wanting a grade or colony debate)

[Rob]

Not the Eric P Newman sale yet, but I've been watching today's Heritage auction and the prices for top grade items are crashing through estimates. Not really my area, but I watched a plain edge 1847 Gothic Crown proof, graded PR65, make $35,250 and an 1887 £5 proof, graded PR66, hit $47,000! These are big numbers.

I liked the 1887 pattern penny in gold but that hit over $20,000 so my fingers kept well away from the keyboard!

It's the only one you'll find. £15K+ is not too much and no different to the prices paid for gold halfpennies. I thought you would go for it.

[Nicholas]

Heritage is lifting the UK coin market towards USA prices that are based on encapsulated coins only in a much much bigger and commoditised market. This can work to your advantage if you have the right coins already and ready to sell. Else you're in trouble. I'm missing out now on new coins I'm interested in now too. Bugger.

[VickySilver]

Exactly - very scary environment to try to buy in! I noted 1893 florin in Proof went for 2600 USD! Admittedly higher grade, however. I think Heritage prices high, and the New York sale absolutely highest.

It is my opinion only, but the prices for what is essentially dross - gold W4 and G4 proofs going for outrageous money. These seem to pop up like nuisance gophers, and are ubiquitous and yet the prices go high. Who is actually buying these? To flip? Doubt that....

[Accumulator]

Not the Eric P Newman sale yet, but I've been watching today's Heritage auction and the prices for top grade items are crashing through estimates. Not really my area, but I watched a plain edge 1847 Gothic Crown proof, graded PR65, make $35,250 and an 1887 £5 proof, graded PR66, hit $47,000! These are big numbers.

I liked the 1887 pattern penny in gold but that hit over $20,000 so my fingers kept well away from the keyboard!

It's the only one you'll find. £15K+ is not too much and no different to the prices paid for gold halfpennies. I thought you would go for it.

I'm sure you're right Rob, but it came at a bad time in terms of other priorities. Lots of competition to spend that sort of money at home!

[Nicholas]

Must say though Heritage makes spending scarily easy. Where else could I spend this amount with one click on the iPhone watching the auction at home and a cup of tea. .. What a auction site. Someone show Spink...

[Accumulator]

Must say though Heritage makes spending scarily easy. Where else could I spend this amount with one click on the iPhone watching the auction at home and a cup of tea. .. What a auction site. Someone show Spink...

Totally agree. They have an amazing set up and wipe the floor with the likes of Spink.

[mhcoins]

Good Morning All,

I must agree as an auction company Heritage have taken all aspects of selling to another level, however i'm not too sure whether this is actually good for the coin market or not. Just image trying to sell here in Engalnd an 1887 Proof £5 for even £20,000, you would be laughed at yet in the states this seems to be the going rate. Another example of the graded crazyed american market is the Gothic Crown that sold yesterday. In all honest a gothic crown IMO is very common yet people seem to be paying almost anything to get one. I sold last year a beautiful 1847 proof gothic crown for about £5,000. It has since been graded by PCGS as PR67. Going on yesterdays realised prices does this mean its a $40,000 + coin now ?

That all being said did anyone actually have any luck with buying anything yesterday?

[azda]

At those stupid Prices we mere mortals are left fighting over the scraps. If the UK auctions start this trend i'll definately be out of this elitest Hobby. The middle classes cannot afford those Prices and i very much doubt These coins are for flipping, who's going to buy them with their added percentage on? They're overpriced as it is.

[azda]

And here is what i mean by the American TPGs not knowing their British coins. This coin is slabbed by PCGS but make no reference of it being 1798/7 mind you, at near $7500 i doubt it will sell to quickly

[Rob]

1798 guinea? As common as they come for the issue. 8/7 is scarcer and also eliminates the forgeries for this date, but 7500 is silly.

[Rob]

And http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=3030&lotNo=24259 is an interesting one from the unsold lots from yesterday. I was going to bid on this in the W&W sale 20/6/2012 where it was lot 455, but declined on the basis of two parallel hairlines above Anne's left shoulder. Now polished out (the dark thin patch), it of course became possible to give it a PF63 grade which always sells better than unc details scratched Ex-Brunning 35 (Sotheby 18th March 1908) where described as a perfect and brilliant example of this rare variety, it had no trace of the hairlines a century ago. The catalogue image (below) did however show the little bead of wax in the angle where the trident shaft meets Britannia's drapery, which combined with the shape detail confirms the provenance. Shame really, as otherwise it was a nice coin.

[azda]

1798 guinea? As common as they come for the issue. 8/7 is scarcer and also eliminates the forgeries for this date, but 7500 is silly.

Even worse Rob. Its a half Guinea.

[azda]

And http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=3030&lotNo=24259 is an interesting one from the unsold lots from yesterday. I was going to bid on this in the W&W sale 20/6/2012 where it was lot 455, but declined on the basis of two parallel hairlines above Anne's left shoulder. Now polished out (the dark thin patch), it of course became possible to give it a PF63 grade which always sells better than unc details scratched Ex-Brunning 35 (Sotheby 18th March 1908) where described as a perfect and brilliant example of this rare variety, it had no trace of the hairlines a century ago. The catalogue image (below) did however show the little bead of wax in the angle where the trident shaft meets Britannia's drapery, which combined with the shape detail confirms the provenance. Shame really, as otherwise it was a nice coin.

So it looks like someone is buying up coins which have slight flaws, tidying them up and then submittier to the TPGs and hoping to make a killing, seems on this Occasion the theory did'nt work. Might be one to look out for. I remember you mentioned a Geo III Gold penny? You have which you sold that also had a few scratches and was "cleaned up"

[Rob]

Gold 1791 pattern halfpenny. sold slabbed without gouge 6 months after I disposed of it with gouge. I can't find the post with images now, but it was some time in 2011(?)

Edited January 7, 2014 by Rob

[VickySilver]

There are some doctors out there - I think we had earlier cited one in Kentucky, USA who is quite talented. Forget his name but a bit of research should pick him out. I have heard somewhere in the past that he takes in Guatamalan coins - many of which are holed and fills the holes and sends them out. Supposedly also a supposedly rare 1796 USA quarter dollar with hole that was later slabbed with number. Can't say I know this firsthand though...

[RLC35]

There are some doctors out there - I think we had earlier cited one in Kentucky, USA who is quite talented. Forget his name but a bit of research should pick him out. I have heard somewhere in the past that he takes in Guatamalan coins - many of which are holed and fills the holes and sends them out. Supposedly also a supposedly rare 1796 USA quarter dollar with hole that was later slabbed with number. Can't say I know this firsthand though...

His name is Allen Stockton, and he lives in Monticello, KY...near the Eastern Mountains of KY. He advertises in the ANA Magazine. He does very good work, but you would not want to send a coin to him in better than VF condition, as the repair and resurfacing does take its toll. Another thing, it takes 6 months to a year to get your coin back. The cost is reasonable however.