Toning ... Again

[TomGoodheart]

So it was quiet here and I was browsing an American forum I frequent and came across a thread on toning.

And I happened to mention that British coins just don't appear to tone in those brilliant(!) rainbow shades you find with US ones. I wondered that, since variations in storage and metal composition aren't to my knowledge that different over here to those in the US, how that might be?

One respondant suggested that since he'd observed that British silver coins tone all-of-a-piece rather than in a rainbow progression, it's an artifact of how our Mint prepared the planchets.

He went on to say "Some favor toning - especially Morgans - to the point where they'll pay a substantial premium over normal prices."

I decided not to post my immediate reply, which was along the lines that I find it curious that something that commands a premium in the US is more often found there than in the UK, where it does not.

Or am I just being cynical?

[Peckris]

So it was quiet here and I was browsing an American forum I frequent and came across a thread on toning.

And I happened to mention that British coins just don't appear to tone in those brilliant(!) rainbow shades you find with US ones. I wondered that, since variations in storage and metal composition aren't to my knowledge that different over here to those in the US, how that might be?

One respondant suggested that since he'd observed that British silver coins tone all-of-a-piece rather than in a rainbow progression, it's an artifact of how our Mint prepared the planchets.

He went on to say "Some favor toning - especially Morgans - to the point where they'll pay a substantial premium over normal prices."

I decided not to post my immediate reply, which was along the lines that I find it curious that something that commands a premium in the US is more often found there than in the UK, where it does not.

Or am I just being cynical?

If 'being cynical' means telling it like it is, then yes.

So it's all down to planchets then? In that case, there must be the same ratio of rainbow Morgans to non-rainbow Morgans over here, as over there. And conversely, there can't be many rainbow UK coins over there either. Unless of course ....

[Peter]

AT is firmly embedded in the US collecting scene.

As is TPG,modern strikes and the like.

Long may it always stay over there.

Maybe the love of toning reflects their lust for neon lights and everything generally gaudy.

[DaveG38]

So it was quiet here and I was browsing an American forum I frequent and came across a thread on toning.

And I happened to mention that British coins just don't appear to tone in those brilliant(!) rainbow shades you find with US ones. I wondered that, since variations in storage and metal composition aren't to my knowledge that different over here to those in the US, how that might be?

One respondant suggested that since he'd observed that British silver coins tone all-of-a-piece rather than in a rainbow progression, it's an artifact of how our Mint prepared the planchets.

He went on to say "Some favor toning - especially Morgans - to the point where they'll pay a substantial premium over normal prices."

I decided not to post my immediate reply, which was along the lines that I find it curious that something that commands a premium in the US is more often found there than in the UK, where it does not.

Or am I just being cynical?

Well it's certainly true that UK silver coins naturally tone all over pretty much evenly, but they do so in shades of grey (50 or otherwise) not in all over blue, or red or orange or whatever. However, I really don't see how the preparation of the planchets can have any impact on the degree or colour of the toning, since the Silver is what it is at 90% or 92.5% purity and the colour of the sulphide is black, and the colour black does not radiate light of any colour in any part of the spectrum. It's all very well for somebody to claim this explanation, but where's the science and detailed analysis?

[TomGoodheart]

It's all very well for somebody to claim this explanation, but where's the science and detailed analysis?

Another quote from the thread: "I took a great course on toning at the ANA many years ago, presented by Bob Campbell, he said always look for attractive toning, and that original toning always follows the color spectrum of the rainbow, in nature, if the colors are in a different order then it is most likely artificial toning and not worth buying. As to how much premium to pay? That is totally up to the buyer. Some of the monster toned Morgans can be astronomical priced when compared to a price sheet."

Colours of the rainbow?? But coins don't tone red, then orange, yellow, green, blue and violet, do they? They start a pinkish grey and go a bluish grey with occasional gold highlights. Of if dipped they seem to go a bit yellower. And eventually, black. But a progression? Not in my (admittedly limited) experience.

I suspect there's less science than wishful thinking myself. After all, who is going to admit to paying over the odds for an AT coin? Attractive? Then it must be natural (they tell themselves...)

Edited October 20, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[Paulus]

It's all very well for somebody to claim this explanation, but where's the science and detailed analysis?

Another quote from the thread: "I took a great course on toning at the ANA many years ago, presented by Bob Campbell, he said always look for attractive toning, and that original toning always follows the color spectrum of the rainbow, in nature, if the colors are in a different order then it is most likely artificial toning and not worth buying. As to how much premium to pay? That is totally up to the buyer. Some of the monster toned Morgans can be astronomical priced when compared to a price sheet."

Colours of the rainbow?? But coins don't tone red, then orange, yellow, green, blue and violet, do they? They start a pinkish grey and go a bluish grey with occasional gold highlights. Of if dipped they seem to go a bit yellower. And eventually, black. But a progression? Not in my (admittedly limited) experience.

I suspect there's less science than wishful thinking myself. After all, who is going to admit to paying over the odds for an AT coin? Attractive? Then it must be natural (they tell themselves...)

A "course on toning"? Good grief, I hope he simply means he "attended a presentation" ! It's all 'Emporer's new clothes' stuff to me, and we are shouting louder and louder that it is all total nonsense!

[TomGoodheart]

Having sowed a few unobtrusive seeds of doubt I've not bothered posting more in that thread.

Rather in the same way that I refrain from shouting throughout all the threads on NCLT "But they AREN'T bloody coins, they have NEVER circulated, they're just overpriced rounds of silver, so WHY do you need to slab and grade them?!?!" because it would be bad for my blood pressure.

No point pursuing arguments you can't win, I reckon!

Edited October 20, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[TomGoodheart]

PCGS info on 'Amazing' eye appeal:

"This is a coin you look at and think "Wow!" This coin could have incredible luster and/or color, and/or mind boggling contrast if a proof or proof-like, and/or incredible mirror surfaces if a proof. Amazing eye appeal can add up to a full point to the "technical" grade."

"Wow"? I'm thinking "Where's the eye bleach??!"

I'm also thinking "original toning always follows the color spectrum of the rainbow, in nature, if the colors are in a different order then it is most likely artificial toning and not worth buying". Eh?

Edited October 20, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[Rob]

PCGS info on 'Amazing' eye appeal:

"This is a coin you look at and think "Wow!" This coin could have incredible luster and/or color, and/or mind boggling contrast if a proof or proof-like, and/or incredible mirror surfaces if a proof. Amazing eye appeal can add up to a full point to the "technical" grade."

"Wow"? I'm thinking "Where's the eye bleach??!"

I'm also thinking "original toning always follows the color spectrum of the rainbow, in nature, if the colors are in a different order then it is most likely artificial toning and not worth buying". Eh?

This is crap then. Colours are all over the place. The sky is blue with a big patch of yellow - whatever next? And the sea really is the Red Sea. Naughty old Peck and the dirty vicar from Tewkesbury for doctoring this coin long before it became fashionable.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Rob

[Coinery]

PCGS info on 'Amazing' eye appeal:

"This is a coin you look at and think "Wow!" This coin could have incredible luster and/or color, and/or mind boggling contrast if a proof or proof-like, and/or incredible mirror surfaces if a proof. Amazing eye appeal can add up to a full point to the "technical" grade."

"Wow"? I'm thinking "Where's the eye bleach??!"

I'm also thinking "original toning always follows the color spectrum of the rainbow, in nature, if the colors are in a different order then it is most likely artificial toning and not worth buying". Eh?

This is crap then. Colours are all over the place. The sky is blue with a big patch of yellow - whatever next? And the sea really is the Red Sea. Naughty old Peck and the dirty vicar from Tewkesbury for doctoring this coin long before it became fashionable.

Another Turner on the back of that old coin! I just hope it's possible to suspend that toning for all eternity, would be a shame to lose that piece of art!

Fabulous coin, and proud heritage, once again!

[davidrj]

this 1863 10 centime bronze coin has a strange but distinct lilac colour (more so than this scan shows)

I've always assumed it is a cleaned coin retoning

other theories welcome

Edited October 21, 2013 by davidrj

[Peckris]

PCGS info on 'Amazing' eye appeal:

"This is a coin you look at and think "Wow!" This coin could have incredible luster and/or color, and/or mind boggling contrast if a proof or proof-like, and/or incredible mirror surfaces if a proof. Amazing eye appeal can add up to a full point to the "technical" grade."

"Wow"? I'm thinking "Where's the eye bleach??!"

I'm also thinking "original toning always follows the color spectrum of the rainbow, in nature, if the colors are in a different order then it is most likely artificial toning and not worth buying". Eh?

Um. So rainbows are now White Yellow Orange Red Purple Blue Green? Whatever happened to the Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain spectrum that I learned at school? Oh that's right - it got Americanised...

[bagerap]

Rip Off Yankee Grading. Believed In Vegas

[azda]

The nail as firmly Hit on the head when the reply came that people will pay a Premium for Rainbow toned coins. Its artificial toning and greed rolled up together. When people Discover how its done they then go out and tone anything they can her their hands on as was seen with a cent that was posted in Peters original tooic.

Its the idiots with their heads so far up their a**e that i feel sorry for, they obviously don't have a brain cell between them.

[azda]

For what its worth, i'd suggest to leave the Americans and their AT alone, it seems another Thorny like subjet to us Brits just like slab/no slab and grading issues we constantly discuss here. Its not worth beating your Head against a wall for and the raised blood Pressure levels. We know they AT tone their coins to make huge amounts on their coins and the British ones also, so let them bury their heads and laugh later when the balloon finally bursts

[scott]

coins do tone those colours, but depends on what they react with.

it is the way they tone though, I find that the top grade silver with a bit of handling tones green/yellow around the legends and it fades as you go in

there is no way you should be getting a coin that looks like someone spilled oil on a road naturally, except when they are stored, there is a toning when they are storred in rolls on the top coins.

I have seen rainbow toned brass, and that wasn't fake.

if you look through silver from the early 20th century, you can see the toning always starts on the outside and works in, although there are examples in North america of a more uniform tone.

[Peckris]

Rip Off Yankee Grading. Believed In Vegas

Excellent!

[Paulus]

For what its worth, i'd suggest to leave the Americans and their AT alone, it seems another Thorny like subjet to us Brits just like slab/no slab and grading issues we constantly discuss here. Its not worth beating your Head against a wall for and the raised blood Pressure levels. We know they AT tone their coins to make huge amounts on their coins and the British ones also, so let them bury their heads and laugh later when the balloon finally bursts

Can't help it, although it does get my heckles up big time. I was just reading some Coin News articles about toning and AT from a few years ago, and they stress that one of the main motivations behind AT (apart from inflating the price) is to hide imperfections ... something to bear in mind!

[Peter]

For what its worth, i'd suggest to leave the Americans and their AT alone, it seems another Thorny like subjet to us Brits just like slab/no slab and grading issues we constantly discuss here. Its not worth beating your Head against a wall for and the raised blood Pressure levels. We know they AT tone their coins to make huge amounts on their coins and the British ones also, so let them bury their heads and laugh later when the balloon finally bursts

Can't help it, although it does get my heckles up big time. I was just reading some Coin News articles about toning and AT from a few years ago, and they stress that one of the main motivations behind AT (apart from inflating the price) is to hide imperfections ... something to bear in mind!

The toning IMO is an imperfection.

[Paulus]

For what its worth, i'd suggest to leave the Americans and their AT alone, it seems another Thorny like subjet to us Brits just like slab/no slab and grading issues we constantly discuss here. Its not worth beating your Head against a wall for and the raised blood Pressure levels. We know they AT tone their coins to make huge amounts on their coins and the British ones also, so let them bury their heads and laugh later when the balloon finally bursts

Can't help it, although it does get my heckles up big time. I was just reading some Coin News articles about toning and AT from a few years ago, and they stress that one of the main motivations behind AT (apart from inflating the price) is to hide imperfections ... something to bear in mind!

The toning IMO is an imperfection.

AT yes, totally agree, the articles I was reading suggest that an artificial toner is no different to a forger. I am a fan of attractive (to my eyes) natural toning, makes a change from a collection full of bright BUs alone! I don't regard NT as an imperfection per se, do you Peter?

Edited October 21, 2013 by Paulus

[Peckris]

For what its worth, i'd suggest to leave the Americans and their AT alone, it seems another Thorny like subjet to us Brits just like slab/no slab and grading issues we constantly discuss here. Its not worth beating your Head against a wall for and the raised blood Pressure levels. We know they AT tone their coins to make huge amounts on their coins and the British ones also, so let them bury their heads and laugh later when the balloon finally bursts

Can't help it, although it does get my heckles up big time. I was just reading some Coin News articles about toning and AT from a few years ago, and they stress that one of the main motivations behind AT (apart from inflating the price) is to hide imperfections ... something to bear in mind!

The toning IMO is an imperfection.

AT yes, totally agree, the articles I was reading suggest that an artificial toner is no different to a forger. I am a fan of attractive (to my eyes) natural toning, makes a change from a collection full of bright BUs alone! I don't regard NT as an imperfection per se, do you Peter?

Me neither. Mind you, there's pretty NT and there's downright ugly NT too!

Edited October 21, 2013 by Peckris

[Paulus]

For what its worth, i'd suggest to leave the Americans and their AT alone, it seems another Thorny like subjet to us Brits just like slab/no slab and grading issues we constantly discuss here. Its not worth beating your Head against a wall for and the raised blood Pressure levels. We know they AT tone their coins to make huge amounts on their coins and the British ones also, so let them bury their heads and laugh later when the balloon finally bursts

Can't help it, although it does get my heckles up big time. I was just reading some Coin News articles about toning and AT from a few years ago, and they stress that one of the main motivations behind AT (apart from inflating the price) is to hide imperfections ... something to bear in mind!

The toning IMO is an imperfection.

AT yes, totally agree, the articles I was reading suggest that an artificial toner is no different to a forger. I am a fan of attractive (to my eyes) natural toning, makes a change from a collection full of bright BUs alone! I don't regard NT as an imperfection per se, do you Peter?

Me neither. Mind you, there's pretty NT and there's downright ugly NT too!

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, as it always has been of course, but I am going to start a thread dedicated to members' (and anyones') favourite toned examples ... might (or might not) provide a source of interesting debate ...

[Coinery]

That's not fair game, Paulus, whilst you have that E7 in your armoury!

Edit: of course, translating a favourite tone into a digital format is altogether a different matter!

Edited October 21, 2013 by Coinery

[Peter]

I take due diligence of NT

The eye appeal of a coin is very important to me.

A carbon spotted BU will always play 2nd fiddle to a nice chocolate EF.

With silver over 100 years old a nice steel grey is preferred.Although a edge toned

coin is also OK.

Never some fairground,rainbow toned freak.

The Yanks can stuff their Dansco albums with these.

[Paulus]

That's not fair game, Paulus, whilst you have that E7 in your armoury!

Edit: of course, translating a favourite tone into a digital format is altogether a different matter!

Not a competition, thought it would be interesting to have pics of members NT (hopefully) coins, I know I would love to see them! Another fan of my avatar coin (beginner's luck)! We never get to see Peter's coins, must be impressive!?? And where is a pic of you Peter to add to the gallery??

Edited October 21, 2013 by Paulus